Top 5 M-SHE-U Failures 4 4

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:09 PM, Artboy99 said:

I liked:

Ang Lee Hulk scene when he picked up the tank and threw it over the hills

The Avengers when he fought Thor, punched the giant flying thing in the New York battle and "puny god" against Loki

The rest is very "meh"

He literally got his ace whooped in Infinity War. We didn't see the real Hulk there "for a few minutes" at all.

[drotto]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:39 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

He literally got his ace whooped in Infinity War. We didn't see the real Hulk there "for a few minutes" at all.

The most pathetic Hulk scene for me was in Endgame, where they ask him to imitate himself during the Invasion of NY.  So he half heartedly basically grunts grr arge and half heartedly lifts and throws a car, while complaining what a insufficiently_thoughtful_person he once was.  While the earlier Hulk was literally going on a rampage ending in the classic Puny God scene.

 

I retrospect, it came across as disrespectful to the previous material as opposed to growth of the character. It is also emblematic of thr problem of Marvel going for the cheap laugh as opposed to meaningful moments or actual character developement.

Edited March 23, 2023 by drotto

[TupennyConan]

Why does Nu-Disney prefer Ruffalo Hulk? 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:17 PM, PopKulture said:

But Cecil Rhodes is deceased. Why isn't Wakanda striving to be more ethnically diverse like the rest of us enlightened nations? Why can't subsequent Black Panthers be - while by definition remaining tragically nationalistic - more diverse, such as a Wakandan of European, South American or Asian descent? 

As a nation, I think it's time Wakanda needs to stop being so ethnocentric and xenophobic. I find it dishearteningly regressive. 

Sarcasm noted.

I guess you never saw Wakanda Forever. The entire starting point of the movie’s plot is how the “enlightened nations” are trying to get their greedy hands on Vibranium for obviously nefarious purposes, and it appears to be the Countess DeFontaine’s sole purpose in life and all she dreams about. The spirit of Cecil Rhodes is alive and well in the MCU.

America’s strength does lie in its diversity. Wakanda’s strength, on the other hand, lies with the Black Panther and the nation’s semi-exclusive hold on vibranium. In the fictional world of the MCU, and past the colonization excuse, Wakanda continues to remain isolated for good reason.

If V. DeFontaine is in charge, I wouldn’t be surprised if vibranium is the driving plot point of the Thunderbolts movie. Maybe it’s discovered somewhere else besides Wakanda and Talokan, such as the Savage Land where Antarctic Vibranium is located according to the comics.

Edited March 23, 2023 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:57 AM, drotto said:

I retrospect, it came across as disrespectful to the previous material as opposed to growth of the character. It is also emblematic of thr problem of Marvel going for the cheap laugh as opposed to meaningful moments or actual character developement.

So you think character progression of Bruce Banner/Hulk would be the Hulk getting dumber and more savage, as opposed to Banner actually finding a cure for the monster within?

Edited March 23, 2023 by @therealsilvermane

[drotto]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:51 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

So you think character progression of the Hulk would be the Hulk getting dumber and more savage, as opposed to Banner actually finding a cure for the monster within?

It has less to do with the progression (which I have issues with) of the character as opposed to the utter dislike Banner has for earlier versions of himself.  Instead of showing pride at how far he has come, he basically disowns his previous self.  He also dismisses, that despite the anger and the rage, he did manage to do great and heroic things in that state. That version of him was not all bad. I also belive that the Hulk can not be cured, but rather Bruce getting incrementally better at control, and coming to terms with the potential monster. He is not excepting his previous self (a key to getting better physcologically) but essentially disavowing that self. The character progression is passed off as a joke as opposed to the difficult journey that it was.

 

As an aside, and this was touched on in Ragnorrock, despite his best efforts,  that beast is still inside and can "win" at times. So yes, Hulk can get dumber at times.  

 

It is also a jab at fans who like that angrier more agreesive version of the Hulk.  Basically calling them unevolved for not evolving with him. People loved that version of the Hulk, and this is making fun of that. I find the unpredictable version to be far more compelling showing the inner turmoil and conflict, while the smart version is very bland. I also find smart Hulk insufferable at times. So yes, progressing the character has left us with a far less interesting, and often boring character.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:08 PM, drotto said:

It has less to do with the progression (which I have issues with) of the character as opposed to the utter dislike Banner has for earlier versions of himself.  Instead of showing pride at how far he has come, he basically disowns his previous self.  He also dismisses, that despite the anger and the rage, he did manage to do great and heroic things in that state. That version of him was not all bad. I also belive that the Hulk can not be cured, but rather Bruce getting incrementally better at control, and coming to terms with the potential monster. He is not excepting his previous self (a key to getting better physcologically) but essentially disavowing that self. The character progression is passed off as a joke as opposed to the difficult journey that it was.

 

As an aside, and this was touched on in Ragnorrock, despite his best efforts,  that beast is still inside and can "win" at times. So yes, Hulk can get dumber at times.  

 

It is also a jab at fans who like that angrier more agreesive version of the Hulk.  Basically calling them unevolved for not evolving with him. People loved that version of the Hulk, and this is making fun of that. I find the unpredictable version to be far more compelling showing the inner turmoil and conflict, while the smart version is very bland. I also find smart Hulk insufferable at times. So yes, progressing the character has left us with a far less interesting, and often boring character.

The problem with Hulk is you can’t do any real storytelling with him because of his child-like behavior that isn’t accountable to an adult mind. Hulk can’t make the adult choices that progress the character’s story. Those choices either have to be made by the human Bruce Banner or the adult people around him. That’s fine if we have a full length Hulk movie with supporting characters to do that, but Marvel Studios can’t make a solo Hulk movie under Disney. And frankly, Bruce Banner is kind of boring visually, as much as I like Mark Ruffalo. And too much “Hulk Smash” also would get boring after a while. So we have the character progression where Banner is able to have the look and strength of Hulk and the voice and mind of Banner. Thus, we can then have the more visually interesting Hulk who can make the more interesting story choices of Bruce Banner. In a movie or show where Hulk is part of an ensemble, it’s actually more interesting IMO. For instance, how much more interesting was it in Endgame that it was big green Hulk having breakfast in a diner, experimenting on Scott Lang, and convincing Thor to join the fight as opposed to puny Banner doing the talking? As a supporting character in an ensemble movie or someone else’s show where Banner’s mind is needed, utilizing Smart Hulk is far more interesting. IMO.

Edited March 23, 2023 by @therealsilvermane

[drotto]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:45 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

The problem with Hulk is you can’t do any real storytelling with him because of his child-like behavior that isn’t accountable to an adult mind. Hulk can’t make the adult choices that progress the character’s story. Those choices either have to be made by the human Bruce Banner or the adult people around him. That’s fine if we have a full length Hulk movie with supporting characters to do that, but Marvel Studios can’t make a solo Hulk movie under Disney. And frankly, Bruce Banner is kind of boring visually, as much as I like Mark Ruffalo. And too much “Hulk Smash” also would get boring after a while. So we have the character progression where Banner is able to have the strength of Hulk and the mind of Banner. So we can then have the more visually interesting Hulk who can make the more interesting story choices of Bruce Banner. In a movie or show where Hulk is part of an ensemble, it’s actually more interesting IMO. For instance, how much more interesting was it in Endgame that it was big green Hulk having breakfast in a diner, experimenting on Scott Lang, and convincing Thor to join the fight as opposed to puny Banner doing the talking? As a supporting character in an ensemble movie or someone else’s show where Banner’s mind is needed, utilizing Smart Hulk is far more interesting. IMO.

But when you have him as a true split personality you get both.  You need smart Bruce, he is in his human form.  When you need muscle, he is Hulked out.  I find the inner conflict between man of science and beast, the most compelling part of the character.  That constant inner war between humanity and pure instinct/rage. Taking away the conflict neuturs the character, because that battle is the essense of the Hulk. We already have too many characters that are smart, honorable, and in control. You need at least one to be a wildcard, in a group dynamic. Take that away the conflict, and instability and Hulk is just plan dull. Making him at peace limits, not helps, story choices. With him at peace, he becomes just another run of the mill hero.

 

I hated the smart Hulk talking diner scene.  It is everything wrong with that version of the character. Every scene done with smart Hulk could have been done with plain Bruce, and it would have changed nothing from a story standpoint. It was also campy and unfunny, with the awful fan girl, selfie photos. When Bruce achieves inner peace, it takes away everything that defines the character.

[PopKulture]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:47 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

America’s strength does lie in its diversity. Wakanda’s strength, on the other hand, lies with the Black Panther and the nation’s semi-exclusive hold on vibranium. In the fictional world of the MCU, Wakanda remains isolated for good reason.

Of course these waters require nuance to navigate, but I think you’re over-reaching slightly to justify a homogeneous nation’s nationalist, isolationist, and protectionist stance.

I do hope that you’d argue as fairly and zealously if some of the details were mostly reversed.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by PopKulture

[bentbryan]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:03 PM, drotto said:

But when you have him as a true split personality you get both.  You need smart Bruce, he is in his human form.  When you need muscle, he is Hulked out.  I find the inner conflict between man of science and beast, the most compelling part of the character.  That constant inner war between humanity and pure instinct/rage. Taking away the conflict neuturs the character, because that battle is the essense of the Hulk. We already have too many characters that are smart, honorable, and in control. You need at least one to be a wildcard, in a group dynamic. Take that away the conflict, and instability and Hulk is just plan dull. Making him at peace limits, not helps, story choices. With him at peace, he becomes just another run of the mill hero.

 

I hated the smart Hulk talking diner scene.  It is everything wrong with that version of the character. Every scene done with smart Hulk could have been done with plain Bruce, and it would have changed nothing from a story standpoint. It was also campy and unfunny, with the awful fan girl, selfie photos. When Bruce achieves inner peace, it takes away everything that defines the character.

Spot on. I thought Smart Hulk was cool for Endgame but that’s it and would have preferred the version in Secret Wars where Bruce is still there but easily agitated. The duality of the character is the real draw. Hulk is a monster, not a hero. Watching Bruce struggle with that is what’s intriguing to me and truly the root of his story.  

[PopKulture]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:47 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

America’s strength does lie in its diversity.

I was dwelling on this after my last response to your same post. It's a subtle point, but I think an important one to posit: doesn't our strength really lie in our unity in spite of our diversity? Heterogeneity is the easy part: that our ships - mostly - should sail in the same direction is really the crux of our modern experiment. 

[drotto]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:28 PM, PopKulture said:

I was dwelling on this after my last response to your same post. It's a subtle point, but I think an important one to posit: doesn't our strength really lie in our unity in spite of our diversity? Heterogeneity is the easy part: that our ships - mostly - should sail in the same direction is really the crux of our modern experiment. 

We should treasure our differences, celebrate them, and support them. Too often these differences are being used to divide, and ostracize. Where differing oppinions and open discourse should be a strength. Now many are pushing for conformity, and threatening to exil others when people step out of line.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:28 PM, PopKulture said:

I was dwelling on this after my last response to your same post. It's a subtle point, but I think an important one to posit: doesn't our strength really lie in our unity in spite of our diversity? Heterogeneity is the easy part: that our ships - mostly - should sail in the same direction is really the crux of our modern experiment. 

I actually didn’t dwell on that statement too long. It’s the nice answer anyway. Probably our strength actually lies in our superior firepower, taxpayer funded war chest, and isolated geographic location between two oceans.

[TupennyConan]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:14 PM, TupennyConan said:

Why does Nu-Disney prefer Ruffalo Hulk? 

Nu-Disney neutered HULK for social reasons, not dramatic. Ruffalo HULK is a social statement or activism. Doing so contributed to bad writing. There is no mystery here. 

[Bosco685]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:03 PM, TupennyConan said:

Nu-Disney neutered HULK for social reasons, not dramatic. Ruffalo HULK is a social statement or activism. Doing so contributed to bad writing. There is no mystery here. 

[drotto]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:03 PM, TupennyConan said:

Nu-Disney neutered HULK for social reasons, not dramatic. Ruffalo HULK is a social statement or activism. Doing so contributed to bad writing. There is no mystery here. 

They are viewing original Hulk as toxic masculinity out of control, when it originally ment to be an extreme personification of the inner rage and turmoil that can exist in all people. But through a modern lens, they gave us the softer gentler Hulk, in a way of suggesting that men can and should evolve beyond that toxicity.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:52 PM, drotto said:

They are viewing original Hulk as toxic masculinity out of control, when it originally ment to be an extreme personification of the inner rage and turmoil that can exist in all people. But through a modern lens, they gave us the softer gentler Hulk, in a way of suggesting that men can and should evolve beyond that toxicity.

Or maybe the Russo Brothers and the Captain America writers simply  don’t know what to do with over-powered  protagonists when it comes to the main story, hence the subtle reason for de-powering Hulk and Thor in Endgame and having strongest Avenger Carol Danvers only at the beginning and end of the movie. Which I believe is what the Russo Bros said in interviews.

[Bosco685]

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

[Bosco685]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:59 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Or maybe the Russo Brothers and the Captain America writers simply  don’t know what to do with over-powered  protagonists when it comes to the main story, hence the subtle reason for de-powering Hulk and Thor in Endgame and having strongest Avenger Carol Danvers only at the beginning and end of the movie. Which I believe is what the Russo Bros said in interviews.

In their own words from 8 months ago.

7:04 - "We just didn't know what to do with him. We were like what do you do with this big, powerful character?"

[PeterPark]

On 3/15/2023 at 11:56 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I'm gonna be honest, I thought that Captain Carter was done in the comics before the What If...? show.

Exiles 3