Problems with CGC grading a CLEANED and pressed book with a purple label. My thoughts. 7 7

[Randall Dowling]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:01 PM, justafan said:

I think it is important that different techniques and practices (regardless of merit) proliferating among the masses are peer reviewed by experts to validate their effectiveness or expose the inherent issues and risks.  While tried and true methods that the professionals use and have painstakingly refined over the years should be the standard, it is equally beneficial to all to vet and identify new safe and effective methods as well as those completely detrimental to comic books.

None of the things discussed in this thread so far are new or innovative.  They've all been done to comics and other ephemera for many decades and the legitimacy of the various methods re: restoration/conservation is also well documented.

The trouble some are having is they want to move the goal posts to include things that have always been considered restoration so that they can get blue labels instead of purple labels.  That's it and that's all.  Trying to conflate pressing with wet cleaning is disingenuous at best (not saying you're doing that, but others clearly are).

If you want to restore/conserve books, fine, go ahead.  Just don't try to hide that you've done it.  And don't get upset when the premiere grading company finds a new way to identify it.  Or try to find out how they're detecting it so you can circumvent that.  Just accept that it's getting a purple label. 

Personally, I think the many amateurs thinking they're going to become proficient in one of these methods so they can game the system should keep on walking and find a better way to make extra money (there are far more lucrative alternatives to this).  Leave these things to those that spend decades practicing these techniques professionally and stop damaging books. 

[The Lions Den]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:44 AM, comicginger1789 said:

Finally, it is possible that an amateur grader thought they detected something or were surprised by the quality of the dry clean job and decided "hey this looks too sharp, must be chemically done so I will give it the purple label". That should NOT happen but it is a possible outcome in this specific scenario.

Books that are assigned a purple label are almost always looked at by more than one amateur grader, and possibly even an expert or two...  

[justafan]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:59 AM, comicginger1789 said:

My wife had the steamer out last night and it is sitting on our dining room table.....methinks I shall dig out some of my junkers and play around. I will share results because I am willing to bet that doing this as opposed to the "low and slow" method, causes some noticeable changes to the book that can be detected. Emphasis on "can be"...maybe CGC does not catch them all so those who do use this method HAVE gotten it past CGC and thus maybe assumed all was well with their method.

I can try to save you a little time and junker comics there.

When using a steamer too close and/or for too long the pages of the comics get heavy with moisture and heated due to the boiling point temps of the steamer.  This will cause the pages to curl, mottle, and become wavy.  If done too long it can make the pages weak and susceptible to damage from warping, tears, fingerprints, and inkloss sometimes just from holding the book.  When you go to press it, you will need to change the configuration of your pressing procedure or will end up under pressing or over pressing due to how the moisture laden pages are affected by the heat and pressure from the press.  Sometimes the result will be stuck pages, wavyness, color bleed, or covers that still curl open slightly.

You can still get away with a small hand steamer if you use one that allows you to control the output and do it lightly never closer than 6-8 inches from the book, evenly, and for no more than 3-5 seconds but no 2 steamers are alike so don't take those numbers as set in stone.  Some produce more steam than others which requires calibration testing on junker books.  However, it won't humidify the whole book as thoroughly or as safely as a humidity chamber.  If you try to do that with a hand steamer you'll end up with some areas that are overly humidified/heated and at risk.  I've never attempted using one of those full garment steamers as they output so much.  Hand steamers seem to be good at localized humidity if your technique calls for that. However, it's not a substitute for a proper humidity chamber.

[joeypost]

On 4/28/2023 at 12:01 PM, justafan said:

I think it is important that different techniques and practices (regardless of merit) proliferating among the masses are peer reviewed by experts to validate their effectiveness or expose the inherent issues and risks.  While tried and true methods that the professionals use and have painstakingly refined over the years should be the standard, it is equally beneficial to all to vet and identify new safe and effective methods as well as those completely detrimental to comic books. 

 

Understood. But it is fairly safe to say that introducing a bleaching agent to a book like Hydrogen Peroxide has already been proven detrimental to the long term health of paper. There are studies out on it. 
 

 

[agamoto]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:02 AM, Prince Namor said:

https://gwconsortium.org/public-education/what-are-the-three-forms-of-water/

Pure water is tasteless, odorless and colorless. Water can occur in three states: solid (ice), liquid or gas (vapor).

Solid water – ice is frozen water. When water freezes, its molecules move farther apart, making ice less dense than water. This means that ice will be lighter than the same volume of water and so ice will float in water. Water freezes at 0° Celsius, 32° Fahrenheit.

Liquid water is wet and fluid. This is the form of water with which we are most familiar. We use liquid water in many ways, including washing and drinking.

Water as a gas – vapor is always present in the air around us. You cannot see it. When you boil water, the water changes from a liquid to a gas or water vapor. As some of the water vapor cools, we see it as a small cloud called steam. This cloud of steam is a mini version of the clouds we see in the sky. At sea level, steam is formed at 100° Celsius, 212° Fahrenheit.

The water vapor attaches to small bits of dust in the air. It forms raindrops in warm temperatures. In cold temperatures, it freezes and forms snow or hail.

Well, I asked ChatGPT to clarify, and FWIW, ChatGPT doesn't agree with the groundwater consortium, or the ruler of Atlantis. Take it with as many grains of salt you feel comfortable with. 

The properties of gaseous water evaporated from the surface and gaseous water generated via the process of vaporization are quite similar. Both are composed of water molecules in a gaseous state and exhibit similar properties such as high temperature, low density, and high kinetic energy. However, there may be some differences in their composition, as water that is evaporated from the surface may contain impurities or other substances that are present in the liquid, while water generated via vaporization may be more pure.

Regarding the second part of your question, it is not accurate to call the visible mist or fog that appears when water is boiled "steam". Steam is actually an invisible gas that is generated when water is heated to its boiling point and undergoes vaporization. The mist or fog that is visible is actually composed of tiny water droplets that have condensed from the water vapor and are suspended in the air.

Similarly, it is not accurate to call the mist, fog, or clouds "steam" once the gaseous water has changed phase back into a liquid state and is suspended in the air. This is because "steam" specifically refers to water vapor in a gaseous state, whereas mist, fog, and clouds are composed of liquid water droplets that are suspended in the air.

[Prince Namor]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:14 PM, agamoto said:

Well, I asked ChatGPT to clarify, and FWIW, ChatGPT doesn't agree with the groundwater consortium, or the ruler of Atlantis. Take it with as many grains of salt you feel comfortable with. 

The properties of gaseous water evaporated from the surface and gaseous water generated via the process of vaporization are quite similar. Both are composed of water molecules in a gaseous state and exhibit similar properties such as high temperature, low density, and high kinetic energy. However, there may be some differences in their composition, as water that is evaporated from the surface may contain impurities or other substances that are present in the liquid, while water generated via vaporization may be more pure.

Regarding the second part of your question, it is not accurate to call the visible mist or fog that appears when water is boiled "steam". Steam is actually an invisible gas that is generated when water is heated to its boiling point and undergoes vaporization. The mist or fog that is visible is actually composed of tiny water droplets that have condensed from the water vapor and are suspended in the air.

Similarly, it is not accurate to call the mist, fog, or clouds "steam" once the gaseous water has changed phase back into a liquid state and is suspended in the air. This is because "steam" specifically refers to water vapor in a gaseous state, whereas mist, fog, and clouds are composed of liquid water droplets that are suspended in the air.

What exactly did you ask it? I asked it very simply:

what states can water exist in?

 

ChatGPT

Water can exist in three states:

1. Solid: The solid state of water is ice, which occurs at temperatures below 0°C (32°F).

2. Liquid: The liquid state of water is the most common form and occurs at temperatures between 0°C (32°F) and 100°C (212°F) at standard atmospheric pressure.

3. Gas: The gaseous state of water is water vapor, which occurs at temperatures above 100°C (212°F) or when water is heated enough to boil and turn into steam. Water vapor can also exist at lower temperatures under lower atmospheric pressures, such as at high altitudes.

 

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Then:

Are you sure?

 

ChatGPT

Yes, I am sure. Water can exist in three states: solid, liquid, and gas.

[Tom789]

The original submitter posted a follow up video where he showed in detail an ASM 33 that got the purple label.  I happen to have an ASM 33 blue label, graded last year with off-white to white pages.  I bought the book in the early 1980s and sent it in without cleaning or pressing.  The best comparison I could make with his book was the back cover.  He showed it and described it as off-white.  Mine is considerably darker and with yellow tones.  I would actually call mine dingy looking.  If the video white balance was good, then I suspect the cleaning indication might have come from a diagnosis of the back cover.  I must emphasize, just a suspicion, clearly not solid evidence!

[agamoto]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:37 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yes, I am sure. Water can exist in three states: solid, liquid, and gas.

Your link from the groundwater symposium said this: "Water as a gas – vapor is always present in the air around us. You cannot see it. When you boil water, the water changes from a liquid to a gas or water vapor. As some of the water vapor cools, we see it as a small cloud called steam. This cloud of steam is a mini version of the clouds we see in the sky. At sea level, steam is formed at 100° Celsius, 212° Fahrenheit. The water vapor attaches to small bits of dust in the air. It forms raindrops in warm temperatures. In cold temperatures, it freezes and forms snow or hail."

The description of steam isn't accurate. Gaseous water produced via vaporization (heating past the boiling point), just like the gaseous water vapor formed by evaporation, is invisible. What we see as clouds/mist/fog is gaseous water, which has condensed, and phase-changed back into liquid water, but still suspended in the air.

[agamoto]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:24 PM, Tom789 said:

The original submitter posted a follow up video where he showed in detail an ASM 33 that got the purple label.  I happen to have an ASM 33 blue label, graded last year with off-white to white pages.  I bought the book in the early 1980s and sent it in without cleaning or pressing.  The best comparison I could make with his book was the back cover.  He showed it and described it as off-white.  Mine is considerably darker and with yellow tones.  I would actually call mine dingy looking.  If the video white balance was good, then I suspect the cleaning indication might have come from a diagnosis of the back cover.  I must emphasize, just a suspicion, clearly not solid evidence!

/watch?v=lb0jVtBLtrc that one?

The only possible evidence I can think of is a cover that appears shrunken. Could just be the way the interior wraps are sitting if the staples are little loose, but pretty sure dimensional changes to a cover are a tip-off that the book's been over-juiced. If it didn't cost so damn much to resubmit, I'd crack it and send it back in just to see if it comes back restored again. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by agamoto

[Tom789]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:29 PM, agamoto said:

/watch?v=lb0jVtBLtrc that one?

The only possible evidence I can think of is a cover that appears shrunken. Could just be the way the interior wraps are sitting if the staples are little loose, but pretty sure dimensional changes to a cover are a tip-off that the book's been over-juiced. If it didn't cost so damn much to resubmit, I'd crack it and send it back in just to see if it comes back restored again. 

That's the one.

[buttock]

On 4/28/2023 at 12:45 AM, agamoto said:

 

Totally on board with that thinking, but once again, technically speaking, you're still introducing water to the environment to bring a book up to an unnaturally high humidity level in order to assist with the correction of flaws using a combination of heat, pressure, and humidity.

If that's acceptable, then shouldn't it also be acceptable to place a book under a bright light, even the sun itself, using a means to block all wavelengths hitting the book except for a sliver of the visible blue spectrum between 440 and 460 nanometers? If artificially altering the humidity of a book is ok, why can't it also be alright to use another natural process that can correct yellowing of chromophores in a book's lignan? 

Also, you do not have to add peroxide to a book to see results, it just takes longer. You could say using peroxide to accelerate photo-bleaching is analogous to using a hand-held steamer to humidify a book. However, the exposure time required to achieve good results can damage some red/yellow inks. There are ways around that however if one has a way to create physical masks in photoshop to protect those pigments. You could also use a nebulizer with a low concentrate 1.5% - 3% peroxide/distilled water solution and get accelerated results under blue light w/o brushing/spraying/blotting H2O2 directly onto a book.

When you're using a tack iron to remove spine ticks, and you've got a stubborn one, do you apply water to the book in that area, or does the whole book have to go back into a humidifier until you're back up to whatever target humidity for the overall book is reached?

If it's acceptable to wipe dirt off a cover gently with your hand, then shouldn't it also be acceptable to wipe just a bit deeper with a belt sander?  

[mjoeyoung]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:30 PM, buttock said:

If it's acceptable to wipe dirt off a cover gently with your hand, then shouldn't it also be acceptable to wipe just a bit deeper with a belt sander?  

And then you can staple some acetate to it!

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 4/29/2023 at 2:03 AM, mjoeyoung said:

And then you can staple some acetate to it!

[agamoto]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:30 PM, buttock said:

If it's acceptable to wipe dirt off a cover gently with your hand, then shouldn't it also be acceptable to wipe just a bit deeper with a belt sander?  

It's a little bit funny... Foks easily accept humidifying a book far above its its natural and ambient humidity in a chamber, some even using a hand steamer. They're perfectly ok with subjecting it to unnatural pressures and heat hot enough to cook an egg, but they'll readily mock any suggestion of using a narrow band of light in the visible spectrum to photo-bleach yellowed books. 

FYI, folks who mount their books to their walls under incandescent, fluorescent, or solar light are doing potentially more damage to their books exposing them over time to even low-levels of UV than those who are blasting their comics with 440-460nm LED. The blue LED's used for the process produce no UV light at all. 

[joeypost]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:14 PM, agamoto said:

It's a little bit funny... Foks easily accept humidifying a book far above its its natural and ambient humidity in a chamber, some even using a hand steamer. They're perfectly ok with subjecting it to unnatural pressures and heat hot enough to cook an egg, but they'll readily mock any suggestion of using a narrow band of light in the visible spectrum to photo-bleach yellowed books. 

FYI, folks who mount their books to their walls under incandescent, fluorescent, or solar light are doing potentially more damage to their books exposing them over time to even low-levels of UV than those who are blasting their comics with 440-460nm LED. The blue LED's used for the process produce no UV light at all. 

And folks who display their books to damaging light will eventually pay the price. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by joeypost

[buttock]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:14 PM, agamoto said:

FYI, folks who mount their books to their walls under incandescent, fluorescent, or solar light are doing potentially more damage to their books exposing them over time to even low-levels of UV than those who are blasting their comics with 440-460nm LED. The blue LED's used for the process produce no UV light at all. 

Yup, which is why anyone with half a clue doesn't do it.  

[Nazirite]

On 4/29/2023 at 2:14 PM, agamoto said:

It's a little bit funny... Foks easily accept humidifying a book far above its its natural and ambient humidity in a chamber, some even using a hand steamer. They're perfectly ok with subjecting it to unnatural pressures and heat hot enough to cook an egg, but they'll readily mock any suggestion of using a narrow band of light in the visible spectrum to photo-bleach yellowed books. 

I’m not interested in light bleaching but to your point  cooking books ain’t natural either just accepted. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Nazirite

[Hulksdaddy1]

All this new info in this thread! Might have to add to my repertoire. Right now, I just...

[sd2416]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:41 AM, joeypost said:

If a book is hydrated properly the first time there is no need to add any additional water onto a book to remove any stubborn bends, creases or spine ticks. You can argue semantics about water vapor, steam and humidity. I will say it again, there is a huge difference between allowing a book to hydrate properly compared to dousing it with water or blasting it with steam. 
 

I will post my results as I experiment with  this new cutting edge technology. In the past, when we wanted to ruin a comic we read it and then rolled it up and put it in our back pocket. 

Just bumping for any update.  

[joeypost]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:18 PM, sd2416 said:

Just bumping for any update.  

I am playing with techniques that don’t use light and peroxide. I see some promising results.