Problems with CGC grading a CLEANED and pressed book with a purple label. My thoughts. 7 7

[thehumantorch]

On 4/20/2023 at 6:58 PM, MrPcfixer said:

Big John breaks it down for the people in the back ;-)

 

Interesting video.  Big John has sent in thousands of books without getting a purple label for cleaning and he seems to know what he's talking about and he's learned through trial and error.

Contrast that with your first post

"Im going to keep this short but would like the entire community to give me honest input. As of late CGC has been sending out purple labels left right and center for "RESTORATION FOR CLEANED COVER". Now heres the issue with this. Is dirt boogers and god knows what else part of a comic book when it comes off the press? I dont believe so no. Would a person rather own a book covered in filth versus a cleaned cover that brings the book back as close to new as it can be? I believe so yes. CGC hasnt had a problem with cleaning books until recently. Even in the CGC grading guide nowhere does it mention that cleaning the cover could be construed as "RESTORATION". By definition means to "RESTORE". I think CGC allowing a person to openly give an opinion on if a book is "TOO CLEAN FOR ITS AGE", is a really bad precedent. By grading books with purple labels for a simple cleaning is killing the community as of late. Its all anyone is talking about in the clean and press community. Unless CGC changes its standards and DEFINES restoration as CLEANING A COVER USING STANDARD METHODS. I think CGC will be taking a pretty big hit long term to its submissions. Theres ALOT of extremely good professional cleaners and pressers out there submitting thousands of books a year for their clients. When those clients start getting purple labels back well there goes the client. CGC You are only hurting the community as a whole doing this. NOONE is saying "ohhh thank GOD that booger and blood and dirt is still on this comic phew!"

This has nothing to do with dirt boogers or filth or blood on the comic and it has nothing to do with 'too clean for it's age.  Trust me, I have mint, white page, high gloss and color GA and SA books that look as nice as the day they were printed in 9.4/9.6/9.8 holders and just got back 4 books 2 weeks ago 9.8, 9.6, 9.6, and 9.4 ( @Artboy99 could you post those Four Colors we just got back?).  And these were pressed and perhaps lightly dry cleaned by Joey but it helps to start with mint books. 

CGC doesn't give purple labels for too clean, they give them if they can detect tell-tail signs of cleaning or other restoration.  It's a gold rush out there and there are tons of guys pushing the boundaries of cleaning and pressing and restoration because there's money to be made.  And most of them don't know what they're doing and now they're getting caught.  That's literally what Big John just said.

 

[Artboy99]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:22 PM, thehumantorch said:

 

Interesting video.  Big John has sent in thousands of books without getting a purple label for cleaning and he seems to know what he's talking about and he's learned through trial and error.

Contrast that with your first post

"Im going to keep this short but would like the entire community to give me honest input. As of late CGC has been sending out purple labels left right and center for "RESTORATION FOR CLEANED COVER". Now heres the issue with this. Is dirt boogers and god knows what else part of a comic book when it comes off the press? I dont believe so no. Would a person rather own a book covered in filth versus a cleaned cover that brings the book back as close to new as it can be? I believe so yes. CGC hasnt had a problem with cleaning books until recently. Even in the CGC grading guide nowhere does it mention that cleaning the cover could be construed as "RESTORATION". By definition means to "RESTORE". I think CGC allowing a person to openly give an opinion on if a book is "TOO CLEAN FOR ITS AGE", is a really bad precedent. By grading books with purple labels for a simple cleaning is killing the community as of late. Its all anyone is talking about in the clean and press community. Unless CGC changes its standards and DEFINES restoration as CLEANING A COVER USING STANDARD METHODS. I think CGC will be taking a pretty big hit long term to its submissions. Theres ALOT of extremely good professional cleaners and pressers out there submitting thousands of books a year for their clients. When those clients start getting purple labels back well there goes the client. CGC You are only hurting the community as a whole doing this. NOONE is saying "ohhh thank GOD that booger and blood and dirt is still on this comic phew!"

This has nothing to do with dirt boogers or filth or blood on the comic and it has nothing to do with 'too clean for it's age.  Trust me, I have mint, white page, high gloss and color GA and SA books that look as nice as the day they were printed in 9.4/9.6/9.8 holders and just got back 4 books 2 weeks ago 9.8, 9.6, 9.6, and 9.4 ( @Artboy99 could you post those Four Colors we just got back?).  And these were pressed and perhaps lightly dry cleaned by Joey but it helps to start with mint books. 

CGC doesn't give purple labels for too clean, they give them if they can detect tell-tail signs of cleaning or other restoration.  It's a gold rush out there and there are tons of guys pushing the boundaries of cleaning and pressing and restoration because there's money to be made.  And most of them don't know what they're doing and now they're getting caught.  That's literally what Big John just said.

 

These 4 books we acquired when we bought a large local collection. We had tried selling them as raw unslabbed, then during a show we looked at them and we decided to get them graded so we could sell them on an online channel. 

 

[MrPcfixer]

On 4/20/2023 at 11:22 PM, thehumantorch said:

 

Interesting video.  Big John has sent in thousands of books without getting a purple label for cleaning and he seems to know what he's talking about and he's learned through trial and error.

Contrast that with your first post

"Im going to keep this short but would like the entire community to give me honest input. As of late CGC has been sending out purple labels left right and center for "RESTORATION FOR CLEANED COVER". Now heres the issue with this. Is dirt boogers and god knows what else part of a comic book when it comes off the press? I dont believe so no. Would a person rather own a book covered in filth versus a cleaned cover that brings the book back as close to new as it can be? I believe so yes. CGC hasnt had a problem with cleaning books until recently. Even in the CGC grading guide nowhere does it mention that cleaning the cover could be construed as "RESTORATION". By definition means to "RESTORE". I think CGC allowing a person to openly give an opinion on if a book is "TOO CLEAN FOR ITS AGE", is a really bad precedent. By grading books with purple labels for a simple cleaning is killing the community as of late. Its all anyone is talking about in the clean and press community. Unless CGC changes its standards and DEFINES restoration as CLEANING A COVER USING STANDARD METHODS. I think CGC will be taking a pretty big hit long term to its submissions. Theres ALOT of extremely good professional cleaners and pressers out there submitting thousands of books a year for their clients. When those clients start getting purple labels back well there goes the client. CGC You are only hurting the community as a whole doing this. NOONE is saying "ohhh thank GOD that booger and blood and dirt is still on this comic phew!"

This has nothing to do with dirt boogers or filth or blood on the comic and it has nothing to do with 'too clean for it's age.  Trust me, I have mint, white page, high gloss and color GA and SA books that look as nice as the day they were printed in 9.4/9.6/9.8 holders and just got back 4 books 2 weeks ago 9.8, 9.6, 9.6, and 9.4 ( @Artboy99 could you post those Four Colors we just got back?).  And these were pressed and perhaps lightly dry cleaned by Joey but it helps to start with mint books. 

CGC doesn't give purple labels for too clean, they give them if they can detect tell-tail signs of cleaning or other restoration.  It's a gold rush out there and there are tons of guys pushing the boundaries of cleaning and pressing and restoration because there's money to be made.  And most of them don't know what they're doing and now they're getting caught.  That's literally what Big John just said.

 

Really appreciate your feedback and thank you for honest input. I have followed and USE RELIGIOUSLY big johns methods and have never received a purple label myself. I have sent in to date 325 or so books using UV peroxide treatments and immacuclean. Never not once a purple label. BUT where I have seen the disparaging part is within the last 2 months several very well known cleaners/pressers have been slapped on the wrist with "COVER TOO CLEAN" and "COVER CLEANED" purple labels. Now since I myself didnt see these first hand and was not there before sending them off to inspect I cant say for certain they were right or wrong. However I can say that several well known cleaners/pressers have run into this issue as of late. My concern is/was that is CGC now going to go on a tirade with this causing people to resubmit books hence making more money for CGC. We all just saw CGCs MASSIVE price increase for mid tier books 1k and up, be bumped way up! I think its a money grab and this is just one more way to get money by CGC.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:00 AM, Artboy99 said:

I natural tanning.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:48 AM, MrPcfixer said:

My concern is/was that is CGC now going to go on a tirade with this causing people to resubmit books hence making more money for CGC. We all just saw CGCs MASSIVE price increase for mid tier books 1k and up, be bumped way up! I think its a money grab and this is just one more way to get money by CGC.

If (bold for a reason) that "was" your concern, you didn't convey it.

CGC can't force anyone to send books in, so I suspect you've made this all up now that you know this is restoration.

[Sauce Dog]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:48 AM, MrPcfixer said:

Really appreciate your feedback and thank you for honest input. I have followed and USE RELIGIOUSLY big johns methods and have never received a purple label myself. I have sent in to date 325 or so books using UV peroxide treatments and immacuclean. Never not once a purple label. BUT where I have seen the disparaging part is within the last 2 months several very well known cleaners/pressers have been slapped on the wrist with "COVER TOO CLEAN" and "COVER CLEANED" purple labels. Now since I myself didnt see these first hand and was not there before sending them off to inspect I cant say for certain they were right or wrong. However I can say that several well known cleaners/pressers have run into this issue as of late. My concern is/was that is CGC now going to go on a tirade with this causing people to resubmit books hence making more money for CGC. We all just saw CGCs MASSIVE price increase for mid tier books 1k and up, be bumped way up! I think its a money grab and this is just one more way to get money by CGC.

It isn't CGC doing a money grab, it's them clamping down finally on something that has always been restoration - but now they either can detect it better, or the sheer amount of people trying to game the system this way has increased so they have to be extra vigilant due to the amount of amateurs utilizing the technique (often poorly). 

There isn't any debate about this - you've used peroxide treatment on paper. That is full stop restoration when it comes to comics (unless you can tell me the steps needed to take to make it fall in line with established best-practices in the paper conservation profession; steps that are not mentioned at all in popular pressing/treatment books or tutorials everyone seems to use, though CGC may still clock that as restored since by the sounds of it you are not disclosing any work done & materials used on a book when submitting to CGC like most other professionals may do)

Edited April 21, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:02 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

...I suspect you've made this all up now that you know this is restoration.

No longer a suspicion. From the first post:

Quote

I think CGC will be taking a pretty big hit long term to its submissions.

You don't think this if your concern is that 'CGC changed their mind as a cash-grab'.

[Hulksdaddy1]

So, this thread, in a nutshell, is:

 

"I've been restoring books and not getting caught. Now they may have found a way to catch me."

 

Accurate?

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:17 AM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

So, this thread, in a nutshell, is:

 

"I've been restoring books and not getting caught. Now they may have found a way to catch me."

 

Accurate?

[thehumantorch]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:48 AM, MrPcfixer said:

Really appreciate your feedback and thank you for honest input. I have followed and USE RELIGIOUSLY big johns methods and have never received a purple label myself. I have sent in to date 325 or so books using UV peroxide treatments and immacuclean. Never not once a purple label. BUT where I have seen the disparaging part is within the last 2 months several very well known cleaners/pressers have been slapped on the wrist with "COVER TOO CLEAN" and "COVER CLEANED" purple labels. Now since I myself didnt see these first hand and was not there before sending them off to inspect I cant say for certain they were right or wrong. However I can say that several well known cleaners/pressers have run into this issue as of late. My concern is/was that is CGC now going to go on a tirade with this causing people to resubmit books hence making more money for CGC. We all just saw CGCs MASSIVE price increase for mid tier books 1k and up, be bumped way up! I think its a money grab and this is just one more way to get money by CGC.

I’ve never seen a “cover too clean “ label.  I don’t believe they exist but if anyone could post  one I’d love to be proven wrong. 
 

Some well known cleaners/pressers are pushing the boundaries of comic cleaning and pressing and they may not be as expert as they think they are.  Could you post some videos of their experiences?  
 

I guess the question is, since some people are now getting purple labels when they didn’t before, what is CGC doing different?

[The Lions Den]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:01 PM, thehumantorch said:

I’ve never seen a “cover too clean “ label.  I don’t believe they exist but if anyone could post  one I’d love to be proven wrong. 
 

"Cover Cleaned" would be the normal nomenclature...  

[Artboy99]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:01 AM, thehumantorch said:

I’ve never seen a “cover too clean “ label.  I don’t believe they exist but if anyone could post  one I’d love to be proven wrong. 
 

Some well known cleaners/pressers are pushing the boundaries of comic cleaning and pressing and they may not be as expert as they think they are.  Could you post some videos of their experiences?  
 

I guess the question is, since some people are now getting purple labels when they didn’t before, what is CGC doing different?

the information is in the graders notes and is stated as "cover cleaned", see attached examples which are the books that the Youtube user "Improve-Collecting Comics" discussed in the video posted earlier in this very thread on page 1.

My guess is CGC is detecting wet cleaning residue not removed properly/entirely OR restoration that was there before the submitter even performed his cleaning to the book.

[thehumantorch]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:17 AM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

So, this thread, in a nutshell, is:

 

"I've been restoring books and not getting caught. Now they may have found a way to catch me."

 

Accurate?

And other guys like me all using methods that have always been considered restoration if detected

[thehumantorch]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:21 AM, The Lions Den said:

"Cover Cleaned" would be the normal nomenclature...  

that’s worlds different than “too clean”.  As a former CGC grader have you ever seen anything like “too clean” on a Cgc label? 

[The Lions Den]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:08 PM, thehumantorch said:

that’s worlds different than “too clean”.  As a former CGC grader have you ever seen anything like “too clean” on a Cgc label? 

No sir, I haven't. And hopefully I never will...

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:58 PM, MrPcfixer said:

Big John breaks it down for the people in the back ;-)

This works wonders! 

Before:

After !!!

 

[Bluefear]

It has been the honeymoon phase for the last several years, but this is the comic book community I remember.

Advice for the newbies: don't argue with the old sharks. These are the people that will scam a comic book from a twelve year old if it makes them a couple bucks.

They aren't interested in giving you helpful advice. They don't want you to learn. They want you paying them to press your books.

They like you as long as they are making money off of you.

[thehumantorch]

On 4/21/2023 at 7:10 PM, Bluefear said:

It has been the honeymoon phase for the last several years, but this is the comic book community I remember.

Advice for the newbies: don't argue with the old sharks. These are the people that will scam a comic book from a twelve year old if it makes them a couple bucks.

They aren't interested in giving you helpful advice. They don't want you to learn. They want you paying them to press your books.

They like you as long as they are making money off of you.

C'mon Bluefear.

Look at MrPCFixer's initial post claiming that CGC is grading books as 'too clean for it's age' and CGC hitting comics for being cleaned using standard methods.  Where's a shred of proof to support his accusations?  I've asked him for it.  And then he posts a video from Big John that literally disagrees with his entire thesis and says if you clean a book properly you'll never get a purple label.  And then MrPCFixer posts "I have followed and USE RELIGIOUSLY big johns methods and have never received a purple label myself".  And then he tries to change the subject by talking about CGC raising prices and making a cash grab.

You can't see how flawed and silly his argument is?

 

[BrashL]

I see this thread is still 95% speculation. Until CGC makes a statement it’s anybodies guess what’s going on. My money is still on inexperienced graders under pressure making mistakes. 
 

Ultimately grading is a system based on human judgements and humans make mistakes. Put 100 NM comics in front of a dozen graders (especially recently hired) and you’ll get a range of grades on the same book. Despite what the market reflects, there’s functionally little difference between 9.6 and 9.8 on a macro scale. And that doesn’t even get into 9.9s and 10.0s. So long as that’s the case, people will play the lottery and see what they can get away with. In this case, I think CGC is just overcorrecting. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]