Problems with CGC grading a CLEANED and pressed book with a purple label. My thoughts. 7 7

[KCOComics]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:03 AM, BrashL said:

I see this thread is still 95% speculation. Until CGC makes a statement it’s anybodies guess what’s going on. My money is still on inexperienced graders under pressure making mistakes. 
 

 

How is any of this speculation? 

Cleaning books, beyond dry cleaning has always been restoration or conservation. No speculation required and its 100% consistent for 20+ years. 

The only ambiguity is their ability to detect cleaning. Techniques change with the express intent of "slipping it past CGC".  And I give CGC allot of credit for continuing to figure out how to detect these new techniques. 

[EastEnd1]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:58 PM, MrPcfixer said:

Big John breaks it down for the people in the back ;-)

 

Have to say, he's a bit of an angry fellow.  And the weird thing is that he's angry about people debating him about scamming CGC. 

I know this is just wishful thinking, but this hobby needs to try something new... how about we just leave the books alone...

[joeypost]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:03 AM, BrashL said:

I see this thread is still 95% speculation. Until CGC makes a statement it’s anybodies guess what’s going on. My money is still on inexperienced graders under pressure making mistakes. 
 

Ultimately grading is a system based on human judgements and humans make mistakes. Put 100 NM comics in front of a dozen graders (especially recently hired) and you’ll get a range of grades on the same book. Despite what the market reflects, there’s functionally little difference between 9.6 and 9.8 on a macro scale. And that doesn’t even get into 9.9s and 10.0s. So long as that’s the case, people will play the lottery and see what they can get away with. In this case, I think CGC is just overcorrecting. 

Let’s just say there are important talks about this going on at CGC. While I agree some of these cases may be based on inexperienced graders, not all of them are. Historically, when a book was being considered as cleaned by water or chemical bath more experienced graders were called in to review it. 

[divad]

 

Problems with CGC grading a CLEANED and pressed book with a purple label. My thoughts.
I've read most of the foregoing posts, and just to toss my hat into the ring: I believe that any book determined to be obviously cleaned and pressed should be deemed restored and/or enhanced.  Both preservation and presentation are arts unto themselves, and should be respected as such. If you can't confirm either without reasonable doubt, then set them free.

[The Lions Den]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:09 PM, Ed the 'Ed said:

I thought any inexperienced graders with restoration concerns passed the book over to Litch?

I can think of numerous people in the grading room with plenty of experience in restoration detection...  

[lou_fine]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:38 PM, The Lions Den said:

On 4/16/2023 at 6:03 PM, joeypost said:

Remember that at one point in time Jason Ewert had many following him and his uncanny ability to consistently get Uber high grades on his books. He was king of the hill for a little while, until it all unraveled around him. 

There always seem to be those people who like a rigged game...

Ahhhh yes..............fond memories and longing for those days of yesteryears gone by when both pressing and micro-trimming were still considered to be restoration with no redeeming conservation value at all and a heinous activity only practiced by those naughty naughty comic book "doctors" working whilst hidden away in their darkened dungeons.      

Then came the "awakening" on these very boards here when all of our eyes were forced opened to see what was actually being done to so many of our treasured books in order to obtain that big exalted number in the top left hand corner of the slab.  It was only then that after many days and many nights of derision and angst by all of the board members here that Moses Borock came down from his fabled mountain top and declared that pressing was really nothing more than maximization of potential while micro-trimming was considered to be destruction of a comic book.  

Can you just imagine what this marketplace would look like today if the holy tablet that Borock eventually brought down from his mountain top had declared that micro-trimming was really nothing more than maximization of potential whilst pressing was considered to be destruction of a comic book.  Why, we could all be living in a Bizarro world where Jason Ewert was looked upon as the All-Mighty and President of CGC while Nelson was deemed to be the Devil incarnate himself and banished from the comic book marketplace.  And of course admist all this, we would have the comic book speculators, flippers, and day traders all scurrying around looking for the "sharpest edged" comic books, all while sporting the sharpest razor thin cutting edged pair of sccissors in their back pockets brought right off the shelves of the local loonie store.    

Edited April 24, 2023 by lou_fine

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:10 PM, Bluefear said:

They aren't interested in giving you helpful advice. They don't want you to learn. They want you paying them to press your books.

I don't even know how to press, genius, so you wasted all your brain cells on this post for nothing.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:03 AM, BrashL said:

My money is still on inexperienced graders under pressure making mistakes.

I'll take that bet. How much you got?

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:49 AM, Ed the 'Ed said:

I'm in. I'll take "he doesn't understand how grading works" for $1,000 Alex.

A mistake would be: "Oops, we missed that color touch top-left of the front cover!"

Not: "Oops, we detected that this book went through a restorative cleaning process!"

[The Lions Den]

On 4/22/2023 at 8:32 AM, KCOComics said:

How is any of this speculation? 

Cleaning books, beyond dry cleaning has always been restoration or conservation. No speculation required and its 100% consistent for 20+ years. 

The only ambiguity is their ability to detect cleaning. Techniques change with the express intent of "slipping it past CGC".  And I give CGC allot of credit for continuing to figure out how to detect these new techniques. 

There always seems to be something new that comes along in this hobby, and hearing about subjecting comics to chemical cleaning procedures always tends to make me cringe a bit. Regardless of what some of these folks may think, the effects of these procedures may cause irreversible damage to the books. 

For me, it's just another reason to go back to the basics...

 

[Parabellum]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:58 PM, MrPcfixer said:

Big John breaks it down for the people in the back ;-)

CGC should flag everyone of this guys submissions from now on.  

[joeypost]

On 4/24/2023 at 7:57 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

A mistake would be: "Oops, we missed that color touch top-left of the front cover!"

Not: "Oops, we detected that this book went through a restorative cleaning process!"

It’s “oopsie”, not oops. 

[divad]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:09 PM, joeypost said:

It’s “oopsie”, not oops. 

There it is! 

[agamoto]

The process of dry cleaning and pressing of a comic book requires the direct application of a gaseous liquid chemical compound to paper, with the intended effect of relaxing the paper's fibers to the point where its present undesired physical condition can be manipulated with the right combination of temperature, humidity and pressure. The ultimate intent being to mimic the original condition of the paper when the book was first printed as closely as possible.

Dry cleaning and pressing of a book is a form of restoration itself that can be every bit as stressful on a book, in many cases more so, than using frowned-upon techniques which involve submitting a book to a slightly different chemical compound with an extra oxygen atom and some filtered-spectrum light.

IMHO, if a book has undergone aqueous cleaning to remove stains or brighten whites thru non-invasive procedures like blue-light therapy (It's NOT UV light), and shows zero evidence of such work at arm's length, then it should always get a blue label. Regardless if the cleaning was dry or wet, if cleaned and pressed poorly, a book should still get a blue label and knocked down the grading scale accordingly, just as books do which have tape repairs made to them. Gray conserved labels should be reserved for obvious, unhidden, additive or subtractive processes used on books meant to conserve a book and/or make it safer to handle and read, and that does include some very light trimming in order to improve the edges and prevent tearing. It should also include books that have been professionally restored using archive quality processes, or perhaps these can be folded into the green label.  

Purple labels should be reserved for junk restoration work.

Imagine if car restorers were limited to using only absorene sponges, swiffer pads and steamed water, and would receive half the value for their restored cars if buyers discovered they took the car apart to clean some parts with varsol or buffed out some scratches with turtlewax.

I think CGC is hitting these books because they've been cleaned and it shows, there's residue left behind on the books that's obvious. That's sloppy, junk restoration work, and it absolutely deserves a big ugly PLOD.

Is a restoration check not part of the grade screening process? I think with these new rates of theirs, they should make screening a default thing and include it as part of the default service... Offer people their books back with a partial refund, or a chance to remove restoration with a surcharge before it gets graded/slabbed. Could be a big money maker if managed properly.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:39 AM, agamoto said:

Dry cleaning and pressing of a book is a form of restoration itself that can be every bit as stressful on a book, in many cases more so, than using frowned-upon techniques which involve submitting a book to a slightly different chemical compound with an extra oxygen atom and some filtered-spectrum light.

IMHO, if a book has undergone aqueous cleaning to remove stains or brighten whites thru non-invasive procedures like blue-light therapy (It's NOT UV light), and shows zero evidence of such work at arm's length, then it should always get a blue label. Regardless if the cleaning was dry or wet, if cleaned and pressed poorly, a book should still get a blue label and knocked down the grading scale accordingly, just as books do which have tape repairs made to them. Gray conserved labels should be reserved for obvious, unhidden, additive or subtractive processes used on books meant to conserve a book and/or make it safer to handle and read, and that does include some very light trimming in order to improve the edges and prevent tearing. It should also include books that have been professionally restored using archive quality processes, or perhaps these can be folded into the green label.  

This guy votes "Crack" in every poll.

[lou_fine]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:39 AM, agamoto said:

The process of dry cleaning and pressing of a comic book requires the direct application of a gaseous liquid chemical compound to paper, with the intended effect of relaxing the paper's fibers to the point where its present undesired physical condition can be manipulated with the right combination of temperature, humidity and pressure.

Since I know absolutely zillch about the whole darned pressing process, but I imagine we would need somebody like @joeypost to confirm that this is NOT the only method to press a book.  Especially since pressing is supposed to be a non-additive process which from the way that I understand it, does NOT require the addition of any gaseous liquid compound to the paper.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/27/2023 at 11:37 AM, lou_fine said:

...gaseous liquid...

[joeypost]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:37 AM, lou_fine said:

Since I know absolutely zillch about the whole darned pressing process, but I imagine we would need somebody like @joeypost to confirm that this is NOT the only method to press a book.  Especially since pressing is supposed to be a non-additive process which from the way that I understand it, does NOT require the addition of any gaseous liquid compound to the paper.  

I don’t use gaseous liquids. I don’t steam my books. I don’t spray them with water. I don’t use peroxide, alcohol or any other solvents unless I am trying to remove glue or a sticker/label. Even then it is sparingly applied only on the affected area. I don’t rub big metal balls all over my books. I don’t bath them in UV/Blue light. 
 

I do use dry erasers only. I hydrate the books properly. I press one book at a time and give it the time it needs in the press. 

[buttock]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:33 AM, joeypost said:

I don’t use gaseous liquids. I don’t steam my books. I don’t spray them with water. I don’t use peroxide, alcohol or any other solvents unless I am trying to remove glue or a sticker/label. Even then it is sparingly applied only on the affected area. I don’t rub big metal balls all over my books. I don’t bath them in UV/Blue light. 
 

I do use dry erasers only. I hydrate the books properly. I press one book at a time and give it the time it needs in the press. 

What kind of balls do you rub on your books? 

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:33 PM, joeypost said:

I don’t rub big metal balls all over my books.