What'sa prelim with you... 1 1

[Dirtcheap31]

I think I could see this being done on some sketch’s maybe… I would never ever send my art in to be authenticated… I fearful of when I send stuff now and that’s usually a single page I am selling to upgrade I couldn’t image people sending a portfolio to be authenticated… but sketch’s at conventions with a image in a database thing maybe…

[MyNameIsLegion]

To my knowledge they only have one encapsulation station to do larger items like magazines and such, and that’s not going to handle all the various sizes of OA, from comics from 3 eras, magazine OA, GA, strips for dailies and sundays, This seems like a fool’s errand, a colossal risk, and again, who the hell in the market is asking for this? Where are you going to store them? There goes those Itoyas. You think a dealer is going to haul them around? All this to flush out the Donnelly’s fakery seems like overkill. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Rick2you2]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Say CGC decides to start authenticating unpublished art. How would they do it? Are they actually going to chemically date the paper and ink? No, of course not -- they will just take the word of the consignor and slab it. Which is to say, there will be no real authentication done at all -- leaving us right at the place we are now, at the mercy of forgers who can recreate any art style all day long (I wonder how many of those hundreds of undated Hellboy head sketches are real...). Short of an actual forensic process being applied, or obtaining a piece with documented provenance, buying any unpublished art is a risk and will always be so.

This almost sounds like a philosophy question. If a forger forges a page so well that no one can tell if it’s original or not, then apart from the difference in value, does it qualitatively matter? Or, does it mean the authentication was not done well enough for the typical person to notice? In either case, it ought to raise caution flags about how we value art.

[alxjhnsn]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:21 AM, Rick2you2 said:

This almost sounds like a philosophy question. If a forger forges a page so well that no one can tell if it’s original or not, then apart from the difference in value, does it qualitatively matter? Or, does it mean the authentication was not done well enough for the typical person to notice? In either case, it ought to raise caution flags about how we value art.

Which leads to one of my favorite words - historicity - which is defined as "historical authenticity." That's what we buy when we buy the original and not a recreation (forgery). It's an interesting concept when applied to something that is "so well (done -aj) that no one can tell if it’s original or not." What is that worth? Clearly a lot.

[grapeape]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:24 AM, IceHole said:

I'm sure the term "grading" is misused here and "encapsulating" is what was meant...under some sort of CGC Signature Series like you would see at conventions for sketches and like the JSC prelim pic I attached.  Those do not have grades attached.

This kinda talk always takes me to the TV series "Pawn Stars" were Rick is looking at a page of original art, but refuses to buy because there is no "letter of authenticity" attached...so how would he know if it's the real deal sorta thing.  Solely a intro problem for the non collector that an encapsulation option would help.   This is why I wanted these prelims encapsulated...the average joe wouldn't understand the prelim aspect of the artist job.  These loose pieces of art may get lost as scribbles in peoples collections...where I thought the encapsulation with CGC would help keep them from getting lost in my collection.  When I leave them to my wife and kids, I'd like them to not think I was a midnight doodler and padding my collection!  Some prelims are wild scribbles, so keeping the artist name attached with encapsulation is helpful.  Now this submission is from the artist, so no expert needed.  There is an absurdity to actually "grading" the art...but I can see submitting original art to cgc, from artists, at conventions for encapsulation...where current art would be left in your grubby little hands for play folks.

For the benefit of your heirs:

Be your art in frames or in portfolio, attach or place written information explaining all the key elements behind each original art piece.The artist(s) names, published or other, price you paid and current FMV should be updated like insurance policies. If you purchased from an auction house or dealer, print out the description page from the website related to that piece of art. Your heirs can refer to that info God forbid something happens to you.

In this way, your heirs don't have to be experts or rely on unsolicited "helpers" like the real estate agents contacting property owners in Hawaii right now.😡

encapsulation of art, respectfully, serves no real value to collectors, only to fee collectors.

 

[MAR1979]

On 8/26/2023 at 2:01 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

To my knowledge they only have one encapsulation station to do larger items like magazines and such, and that’s not going to handle all the various sizes of OA, from comics from 3 eras, magazine OA, GA, strips for dailies and sundays, This seems like a fool’s errand, a colossal risk, and again, who the hell in the market is asking for this? Where are you going to store them? There goes those Itoyas. You think a dealer is going to haul them around? All this to flush out the Donnelly’s fakery seems like overkill. 

The most important lessons to give to someone new to the hobby are

1) NEVER BUY FROM LOS BROS - consider any art they do have as not existing
2) All Waterson Art is fake!
3) Heritage will jack and shill every auction and it may even be legal in Texas.
4) See Rule #1

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by MAR1979

[pemart1966]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Say CGC decides to start authenticating unpublished art. How would they do it? Are they actually going to chemically date the paper and ink? No, of course not -- they will just take the word of the consignor and slab it. Which is to say, there will be no real authentication done at all -- leaving us right at the place we are now, at the mercy of forgers who can recreate any art style all day long (I wonder how many of those hundreds of undated Hellboy head sketches are real...). Short of an actual forensic process being applied, or obtaining a piece with documented provenance, buying any unpublished art is a risk and will always be so.

Yeah - how would they do it?  For example, look at all the discussion that takes place every time someone posts a Bob Kane sketch and solicits "opinions" as to whether or not it's the Real McCoy.  

Knowledgeable collectors often don't agree or are unsure so how is CGC going to know with certainty?

CGC should stick with just encapsulation and forget the grading of one of a kind items such as art.  Grading allows you to compare identical issue numbers.  Comic art is one of a kind so grading it serves no purpose.

I wouldn't mind though if CGC put art through some sort of black light process to identify any ink touch ups, bleaching, stain removal or other such monkey business.

[Nate Hartz]

I really don't see this actually happening anytime soon. It doesn't seem to be a market for it. Encapsulation of original art I can see happening but grading the art is going to be a waste. It is a one of a kind piece of artwork and giving a grade to a one of one is kind of silly. Just like the grading of the WOTC Lord of the Rings ONE RING. It is a one of one. Getting it encapsulated is fine but that is the only one in existence, so the grade is secondary on so many levels.

[JadeGiant]

Why do you need a company to do this? Do you need CGC (or another company) to grade art? Clearly, the answer is no as the "grade" doesn't really mean anything. Do you need a company to authenticate? If this could be done well, maybe but this is not an easy task and a company would need to have extensive knowledge to do this to avoid the forgeries, fake covers, altered pieces, etc. 

Now, encapsulating in a way that preserves the art? Yes - there could be an opportunity to step it up from Itoyas, etc. ... I could see a market there for some (not all)

[MAR1979]

For nearly all NON Painted published comic art, encapsulating will succeed in transforming a flexible item not subject to damage with normal handling to an large rigid easily damageable object that requires rather gentle care. I have no desire to deal with the kind of attention and babying a large art slab will require for both handling and storage. Seems like a giant P.I.T.A.

If CGC somehow believes there to be a market here I do seriously question if they are canvassing input from the the correct folks. Seems like a career end-er or at very least bonus reducer for those who champion it when it fails and losses pile up.

P.S.
Then there are Newton's Rings horrid enough of an issue with CGC Comics, that will be a worse problem due to the vast additional size of a standard published size or large art slab.
 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MAR1979

[redrighthand]

At this risk of offending the board hosts, why would I even trust CGC's authentication? There are many practices already that make me doubt their integrity as an objective judge. It feels to me like the only thing driving their comics grading is the price boost over any other grader. The accuracy of the grade is secondary.

[artdealer]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:33 PM, redrighthand said:

At this risk of offending the board hosts, why would I even trust CGC's authentication? There are many practices already that make me doubt their integrity as an objective judge. It feels to me like the only thing driving their comics grading is the price boost over any other grader. The accuracy of the grade is secondary.

As I have posted before…

Who at CGC is qualified to authenticate art?

[redrighthand]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:41 PM, artdealer said:

As I have posted before…

Who at CGC is qualified to authenticate art?

Assuming a new hire...Honestly, I don't think they'll actually move to this level. Regardless of what they say.

[JC25427N]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:41 PM, artdealer said:

As I have posted before…

Who at CGC is qualified to authenticate art?

No one at CGC was qualified to grade cards before they opened CGC Trading Cards. No one at CGC was qualified to grade games before they opened CGC Video Games. Whenever they've opened a new branch they always hire new personnel for that branch. There are plenty of reasons why CGC going into authenticating OA might not be a good idea, but CGC not having anyone right now to work on it isn't one of them. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by JC25427N

[artdealer]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:15 PM, JC25427N said:

No one at CGC was qualified to grade cards before they opened CGC Trading Cards. No one at CGC was qualified to grade games before they opened CGC Video Games. Whenever they've opened a new branch they always hire new personnel for that branch. There are plenty of reasons why CGC going into authenticating OA might not be a good idea, but CGC not having anyone right now to work on it isn't one of them. 

You can hire anyone. Just because CGC hires someone who collects art, doesn’t make them able to authenticate art. 
They would have to hire someone who has been involved for decades. 
 

[JC25427N]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:39 PM, artdealer said:

You can hire anyone. Just because CGC hires someone who collects art, doesn’t make them able to authenticate art. 
They would have to hire someone who has been involved for decades. 
 

Yeah I agree that just hiring a random collector wouldn't cut it, my point was that saying CGC doesn't have anyone right this moment that can authenticate art isn't a good argument for considering whether CGC could or should viably open authentication services

If you meant to say "Could CGC find someone qualified to authenticate art?" then thats a different and really good question. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by JC25427N

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:39 PM, artdealer said:

You can hire anyone. Just because CGC hires someone who collects art, doesn’t make them able to authenticate art. 
They would have to hire someone who has been involved for decades. 
 

You ready to retire to Florida with the other geezers Mitch? I hear it's lovely down there (not!) 

[artdealer]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:52 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

You ready to retire to Florida with the other geezers Mitch? I hear it's lovely down there (not!) 

Not quite ready to retire. 
When I do, I’ll stay in NY. 

[vodou]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:41 PM, artdealer said:

Who at CGC is qualified to authenticate art?

Two Brothers out of San Mateo have already forwarded their resumes…

[artdealer]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:15 PM, vodou said:

Two Brothers out of San Mateo have already forwarded their resumes…

I’ll take uneducated Art Dealers for $500, Pat.