What are the top 5 Pedigree’s in your opinion? 7 7

[N e r V]

I feel like this is somehow a spin-off of this thread: 

I think CGC should slow down with the Pedigree designations. They are cheapening it.

 

[lou_fine]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:07 PM, N e r V said:

I feel like this is somehow a spin-off of this thread: 

I think CGC should slow down with the Pedigree designations. They are cheapening it.

 

If that was indeed the case, then wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a thread on "What Are The BOTTOM 5 Pedigree's In YOur Opinion"?  

[Mmehdy]

Church

Riley

Promise

[Robot Man]

Church

Okajima (coded)

Gaines

San Francisco

Larson

There are a few others I might add to the list but these are the ones most important to me. And ones I have at least a few examples of. I would love to own an Allentown but the ship has long sailed for me…

[action1kid]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:07 PM, N e r V said:

I feel like this is somehow a spin-off of this thread: 

I think CGC should slow down with the Pedigree designations. They are cheapening it.

 

Like The Ropers. 3’s companies spin off. I get it

[Primetime]

Church

Larson (my favorite) 

San Francisco/Reilly 

Okajima

Allentown 

 

[MusterMark]

Purely in terms of back story, it's hard to beat

Okajima

Larson

 

(As far as I know.  There may be others rivaling these.  It's subjective of course.)

[lou_fine]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:54 PM, sfcityduck said:

Mile High (you can name it after a bitter obsessed old man, I'll name it after the store that created the pedigree concept)

What makes you say that Edgarwas a bitter obsessed old man when he was supposedly collecting them for work reference purposes?  

As for being obsessed, aren't all collectors a bit obsessive and for being an old man, don't we all age over time and sadly become old?  

Edited October 18, 2023 by lou_fine

[Sauce Dog]

Counterpoint: Everyone here is looking at this too much from their historic value to the comic community, and should be looking at it from a value from an outsiders desire, specifically general pop culture standpoint if long term value is what you are after (as well as a story that can be explained to basically everyone and won't fundamentally just boil down to 'he collected lots of comics').

To that end, Green River pedigree is one of the tops. Serial killers and the stories surrounding them are big, and always have a following due to new shows & media constantly being revisited, so to have an entire pedigree associated with such a well known case makes it desirable to those who are outside of the comic hobby

Edited October 18, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:28 AM, lou_fine said:

What makes you say that Edgarwas a bitter obsessed old man when he was supposedly collecting them for work reference purposes?  

As for being obsessed, aren't all collectors a bit obsessive and for being an old man, don't we all age over time and sadly become old?  

My comment is largely tongue in cheek. I know that Edgar was a commercial artist with apparent aspirations to do comics and pulps illustrations. So I tend to think that he loved art, and viewed his comics as reference works as well as, at least in part, entertainment. What is not appealing about the Church story is that he apparently valued his comics over his kids from what I've heard, and the family could not wait to get rid of them as a result. It is not a story which I view as a positive association. I have the same reaction to that newly designated "collection" that the kid is using as documentary fodder. That collector and Edgar chose comics over his family and that's just not a choice I'd make. I also just find it a bit weird that we call certain collections after stores or places when we know the name of the OO, yet for a collection that came out as the Mile High collection and was famous for years under that moniker, a strong move was later made to rename it after Edgar Church. I guess Chuck alienated others or they think he's too colorful. But, to me, Church's story doesn't really add much value because he was an isolated, and perhaps an alienated, guy who never appears to have joined comic fandom despite his apparent infatuation with comics (for whatever reason). Chuck's story does resonate with me though because it was a pivotal moment in comic fandon/dealing history and that collection was the Mile High collection in my youth (and Chuck's ads for more modern comics helped me grow my own collection). So I'm good with using "Mile High" as the moniker (and Cosmic Aeroplane, etc.) despite we know the OO's name, just like I am with using Promise, Chinatown, etc.

[CGC Mike]

On 10/18/2023 at 3:49 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Green River pedigree is one of the tops. Serial killers and the stories surrounding them are big, and always have a following due to new shows & media constantly being revisited, so to have an entire pedigree associated with such a well known case makes it desirable to those who are outside of the comic hobby

I had the opportunity to see Red Hook's massive Green River collection over 15 years ago.  What a treat.  

[waaaghboss]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:49 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Counterpoint: Everyone here is looking at this too much from their historic value to the comic community, and should be looking at it from a value from an outsiders desire, specifically general pop culture standpoint if long term value is what you are after (as well as a story that can be explained to basically everyone and won't fundamentally just boil down to 'he collected lots of comics').

To that end, Green River pedigree is one of the tops. Serial killers and the stories surrounding them are big, and always have a following due to new shows & media constantly being revisited, so to have an entire pedigree associated with such a well known case makes it desirable to those who are outside of the comic hobby

Was the owner of the collection actually the green river killer?  I talked to a spokane comic shop owner a few years ago and he told me he was a suspect, but was acquitted.  He sold his books to help pay for his defense.

[zzutak]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:54 PM, sfcityduck said:

What is not appealing about the Church story is that he apparently valued his comics over his kids from what I've heard, and the family could not wait to get rid of them as a result.

I can't speak to this.  However, based on my own experience (as well as that of families I've been friendly with over the years), there's no more sure-fire way to turn unblemished items into junk than allowing your young 'uns access to them.  Kids are rough on everything, from ephemera to toys to furniture to the walls of your home. 

I think it's a safe bet that none of the currently recognized pedigree collections was ever available to the original owner's kids.  Remember the story behind last year's Truckee Meadows Collection?

Edited October 19, 2023 by zzutak

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:44 PM, zzutak said:

 

I think it's a safe bet that none of the currently recognized pedigree collections was ever available to the original owner's kids. 

 

Wasn’t one of the pedigrees a father daughter collection?  Lots of collectors  instill a love of activity to their kids. 

[whomerjay]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:54 PM, sfcityduck said:

My comment is largely tongue in cheek. I know that Edgar was a commercial artist with apparent aspirations to do comics and pulps illustrations. So I tend to think that he loved art, and viewed his comics as reference works as well as, at least in part, entertainment. What is not appealing about the Church story is that he apparently valued his comics over his kids from what I've heard, and the family could not wait to get rid of them as a result. It is not a story which I view as a positive association. I have the same reaction to that newly designated "collection" that the kid is using as documentary fodder. That collector and Edgar chose comics over his family and that's just not a choice I'd make. I also just find it a bit weird that we call certain collections after stores or places when we know the name of the OO, yet for a collection that came out as the Mile High collection and was famous for years under that moniker, a strong move was later made to rename it after Edgar Church. I guess Chuck alienated others or they think he's too colorful. But, to me, Church's story doesn't really add much value because he was an isolated, and perhaps an alienated, guy who never appears to have joined comic fandom despite his apparent infatuation with comics (for whatever reason). Chuck's story does resonate with me though because it was a pivotal moment in comic fandon/dealing history and that collection was the Mile High collection in my youth (and Chuck's ads for more modern comics helped me grow my own collection). So I'm good with using "Mile High" as the moniker (and Cosmic Aeroplane, etc.) despite we know the OO's name, just like I am with using Promise, Chinatown, etc.

Not clear whether Church was a bad dude, more likely he wasn’t the ideal family man because he favored his work, for whatever reason. Not uncommon.

Chuck, in the other hand, fleeced the Church family. At least that’s my understanding (I’d love to be wrong). If I encountered a collection a tenth that size, I’d have to give the family something more than…essentially nothing. 

I never understood why so many say the find is such a great story when at its core it’s a naive seller getting fleeced by comic book guy. Interesting, but not great.  

[Sauce Dog]

On 10/19/2023 at 2:26 AM, waaaghboss said:

Was the owner of the collection actually the green river killer?  I talked to a spokane comic shop owner a few years ago and he told me he was a suspect, but was acquitted.  He sold his books to help pay for his defense.

He was not the killer, but it still remains associated with a major serial killer so pretty much everyone will know something already if you simply mention 'green river'.

[lou_fine]

On 10/19/2023 at 4:52 AM, whomerjay said:

Chuck, in the other hand, fleeced the Church family. At least that’s my understanding (I’d love to be wrong). If I encountered a collection a tenth that size, I’d have to give the family something more than…essentially nothing. 

No. the old lady and the family asked for brand new FULL COVER PRICE for old used smelly books on the condition that Chuck had to removed them all from the house at his own expense and dirt poor Chuckles agreed to accept the offer even though he didn't have a dime to his name at the time and had to go out and borrow the money from a big time comic dealer in order to acquire the collection.    

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:39 AM, lou_fine said:

No. the old lady and the family asked for brand new FULL COVER PRICE for old used smelly books on the condition that Chuck had to removed them all from the house at his own expense and dirt poor Chuckles agreed to accept the offer even though he didn't have a dime to his name at the time and had to go out and borrow the money from a big time comic dealer in order to acquire the collection.    

Chuck was operating at a time before pedigrees were a thing, price guides were a new concept, comic conventions were still an emerging concept, and there was risk to dealers. Hard to believe these days.
 

It was more than a bit of a Wild West back then. Chuck’s story on the acquisition is very similar to the story for most comic acquisitions back then. There are other pedigrees that were in whole or part hitting the market because the comics were stolen and the dealers likely knew it. Chuck at least was not a fence.

The closer to the present we get the more suspicious and dicey these vague pedigree stories get. But way back when Chuck bought those comics he was arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver. It was only after he blew up the pricing models, created the pedigree multiplier, and arguably jump started price inflation that the market fully matured.
 

But I am suspicious of almost every pedigree acquisition where the dealers do not tell how or where they got the books. The pedigrees consigned to Heritage are the most “ethical” deals for OOs. Not that there is anything wrong with a dealer paying wholesale prices.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:16 AM, Sauce Dog said:

He was not the killer, but it still remains associated with a major serial killer so pretty much everyone will know something already if you simply mention 'green river'.

Well … yes there is an association but it is of a false accusation and the resulting harm to the seller that led to him being forced to sell the books. It’s on the spectrum of tragedy for sellers being victimized that museums are struggling with like Jews having to sell their paintings to escape Germany. Not a good association.

[Superman2006]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:23 AM, sfcityduck said:

On 10/19/2023 at 9:39 AM, lou_fine said:

No. the old lady and the family asked for brand new FULL COVER PRICE for old used smelly books on the condition that Chuck had to removed them all from the house at his own expense and dirt poor Chuckles agreed to accept the offer even though he didn't have a dime to his name at the time and had to go out and borrow the money from a big time comic dealer in order to acquire the collection.    

Chuck was operating at a time before pedigrees were a thing, price guides were a new concept, comic conventions were still an emerging concept, and there was risk to dealers. Hard to believe these days.
 

It was more than a bit of a Wild West back then. Chuck’s story on the acquisition is very similar to the story for most comic acquisitions back then. There are other pedigrees that were in whole or part hitting the market because the comics were stolen and the dealers likely knew it. Chuck at least was not a fence.

The closer to the present we get the more suspicious and dicey these vague pedigree stories get. But way back when Chuck bought those comics he was arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver. It was only after he blew up the pricing models, created the pedigree multiplier, and arguably jump started price inflation that the market fully matured.
 

But I am suspicious of almost every pedigree acquisition where the dealers do not tell how or where they got the books. The pedigrees consigned to Heritage are the most “ethical” deals for OOs. Not that there is anything wrong with a dealer paying wholesale prices.

For what he paid for the books, I don't think that I would say that Chuck was "arguably taking a bit of a risk in Denver" given his story about having sold $1,800 in comics at a convention in 1972, and I doubt the books he sold then were anywhere near the quality or quantity of the Edgar Church books (more info in the link below)

https://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg12.html