Why are cartoon comics not as popular with collectors as superhero comics are? 3 3

[stormflora]

Everywhere I go, it seems that most people only talk about superhero comics, not cartoon comics. Personally, I'm a fan of old cartoons like Tom & Jerry, Road Runner, etc., although it may have been because I grew up watching those on TV. Superhero comics until this day feel like a dime a dozen, although some key issues can go for ridiculous amounts of money. But given the choice, I'd rather pick up new indie series instead to see what they have to offer, over new spinoffs of past superheroes.

Am I the only one sailing on this boat? Some of these old cartoon comics can cost quite a lot of money to collect as well and sometimes are just as difficult to find as certain superhero comics. But they're still not seen as highly valuable. The cost of a couple of superhero key issues could cover the cost of gathering the entire collection of a particular cartoon character.

[MattTheDuck]

Well, it's an interesting question.  Personally, I equate it to watching Saturday morning cartoons as a kid versus the dramas and comedies and other stuff I like to watch now as an adult.  This is not to say that some animated content has no "adult" appeal - in fact, my daughter loved movies like "Toy Story" and "The Incredibles" as a kid, and after she grew up realized that some of the humor was actually aimed at adults. She had this revelation while still at home and that was a fun day around here.

I don't know why they did it this way, but the superhero books I collect (Silver Age Marvels) seem to be aimed at least at teenagers, story-wise, rather than at children.  One of the Marvel innovations was characters who faced the kinds of actual problems in their lives that teenagers and adults in the "real world" might face.  At the time, I'm sure there were plenty of Amazing Spider-Man readers who also were trying to figure out how to afford transportation or were pining over girls. I suspect a lot of people could - and still can - relate to Peter Parker caring for his aging Aunt or the Fantastic Four squabbling because they were roommates and just around each other too much.  

This is not to say there isn't interesting subversive stuff in characters like Bugs Bunny and so on, but it's also not "real" in the same way.

[Professor K]

This may not make sense or be totally wrong but with comics Golden, Silver, Bronze, they were the primary and usually the original medium for the characters. With cartoon characters like Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, ect ect ect the comics were just another medium which they were being marketed, but the primary was the cartoons. 

[Telegan]

Cartoon comics I think have a stigma of sorts associated with being for little kids.  Superhero comics may be for kids, too, but at least you have some kind of drama, storyline, etc. associated with them and the characters seem to be "superhuman" and fantastic enough to want to associate yourself with them and their actions/beliefs.  Especially as a kid, you dreamt "boy, I wish I could be like that" or "I wish I had that superpower".  As you get older, you have nostalgia about it.  There's only so much drama in a Tom & Jerry comic.  Usually nobody's running around saying "I want to be Donald Duck" or "I wonder what will happen in the next issue of Bugs Bunny!" when they're adults, so usually, at least from what I've seen, this realm is left for real collectors who value the nostalgia or the artist(s).

That being said, there are a lot of interesting cartoony covers I like, but I can't say I actively collect them or anything and don't look down on people that do.  I have a copy of Wonderland Comics #7 (Howard Post cover) that I had always loved from the moment I saw it, so I got a raw copy when I saw it available. It's still one of my favorite covers because it makes me smile for some reason every time I look at it, and I don't know why.

On a side-note, the superhero love is also waning, as I understand it, nowadays, but I don't know if that's a trend-to-0 or more like a phase we're going through.  The movies the MCU kept putting out didn't help it any, for sure.

[IngelsFan]

I’m a big fan of some of the cartoon comics, and one reason I feel that they don’t have the same popularity is that there are few “first appearances” in the comics. So you have to settle for “first comic book appearance” which does not carry the same weight. For example, Action Comics 1 is the first appearance of Superman, anywhere. I struggle to think of a cartoon character parallel from the GA. Combine that with the fact that even a lot of the first comic book appearances aren’t well-documented, and it makes for a hard jumping on point for traditional collectors, even those familiar with the cartoons.

[Bookery]

It's just a theory, but if one looks at the timeline, super-hero comics really didn't become the dominant genre of comics until the '60s and '70s.  I think the mass-arrival of television had a lot to do with that.  Once TV dominated every household, one could satisfy one's entertainment for most genres for free (tons of westerns, soap operas replacing romance comics, detective and crime stories aplenty, animated cartoons by the dozens, etc.).  The one genre that couldn't be done well on TV was super-heroes, due to budget and technological restraints.  So if you wanted your super-hero fix, comics were pretty much it.  When CGI changed all that, comic collecting initially boomed with the crossover interest from new mega-budget movies.  But now super-stuff in movies and TV is commonplace... there simply aren't enough hours in the week for one to watch all the stuff that is available to them, leaving out the video game market on top of that.  It will be interesting to see if comics still hold fascination in super-heroes, now that there is literally no genre that can't be produced for live-action mediums.

[Robot Man]

Superheroes have always been top of the heap to comic collectors. There are a lot of popular genres but “men in tights” have always had the most popularity. Probably always will be.

Personally, I like and collect ALL genres. I have a ton of funny animals, cartoon and humor books in my collection. There are great books in all genres you just have to be open minded.

As a young guy, my interests drifted more into GA horror, sci fi, crime and GGA titles and less the others. These, in time were “discovered” by others.

About the only undiscovered and unappreciated genre left are the humor books. And deals abound for those bold enough to dip their toes in that pool…

[PDGray]

I think @Professor K was spot on.  Comics were the original medium for the superhero genre, but kind of a "side item" for the cartoons.  

At the same time I managed to acquire a few of the Dell file copies of early Bugs Bunny comics recently.  I didn't buy them for investment or anything, but to preserve the history and heritage of them.  But otherwise I thought they were neat books!

 

PDG

[Tri-Color Brian]

I'm fine with most collectors not appreciating cartoon character books.  Keeps the prices low for me.  Look at this...Bugs in Drag...

[Point Five]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:02 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

I'm fine with most collectors not appreciating cartoon character books.  Keeps the prices low for me.  Look at this...Bugs in Drag...

Oh noez, not that! Think of the CHILDREN!   

 

[adamstrange]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:37 AM, Bookery said:

super-hero comics really didn't become the dominant genre of comics until the '60s and '70s.

Golden Age represents the golden age of superheroes when they went from being 13% share of a very small market in 1938 to a 54% share of a much larger market in 1941.  In June 1941, there are 57 comics, 42 of which are arguably mostly super-hero based. 

[fifties]

Assuming your term of cartoon comics equates to funny animal books, yes, they have always been on a different tier.  They were strictly aimed at children, with the stories and background art very simple.  Except for Carl Barks Disney work, the illustrations were nothing to write home about.  When the Comics Code came into effect, Dell comics would not subscribe to it, nor did they really have to.  You won't find the CCA label on any of their, or Gold Key publications.

Funny thing is, there is more violent activity in an average Tom and Jerry movie cartoon than in any of the pre code crime and horror books.

[Professor K]

On 11/20/2023 at 7:37 PM, PDGray said:

I think @Professor K was spot on. 

 

PDG

Thanks PDG, I really needed that boost today. 

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:18 PM, Point Five said:

Oh noez, not that! Think of the CHILDREN!   

 

Better not show this to kids...

[stormflora]

All very good points, everyone. It was insightful reading through all of your comments.

I suppose I overlooked the fact that cartoon characters in comics were secondary mediums meant to piggyback off of their original animations on TV, most of which eventually died off except for a handful of legendary ones everyone knows. I guess that comes with business: corporations will only keep pushing and publishing works of a character if it makes them money.

It certainly does not help that comic collectors are typically older people (at least in their teens) who have the money to afford doing so. And since they are an older audience, they would naturally be more biased towards comic series that appeal to their demographic as opposed to young children. So the demand is just not there and thus the cost is overall lower.

Moreover, since comics are a niche hobby in general now (people would likely rather watch TV or play video games, etc.), the point I made in the second paragraph continues to stand: Marvel/DC Comics is only concerned with their biggest cash cows and nothing more. We have had some non-superhero imprints (like Disney) making comics of their top IPs as well, but with mixed success (mostly gravitating towards failure that results in series not lasting long). Indie imprints seem to be the new competing spectrum to superhero comics right now, as there are some interesting gems that come out, such as Something is Killing the Children.

I guess I'm just having a nostalgia trip.

Edited November 21, 2023 by stormflora

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:37 AM, Bookery said:

It's just a theory, but if one looks at the timeline, super-hero comics really didn't become the dominant genre of comics until the '60s and '70s.  I think the mass-arrival of television had a lot to do with that.  Once TV dominated every household, one could satisfy one's entertainment for most genres for free (tons of westerns, soap operas replacing romance comics, detective and crime stories aplenty, animated cartoons by the dozens, etc.).  The one genre that couldn't be done well on TV was super-heroes, due to budget and technological restraints.  So if you wanted your super-hero fix, comics were pretty much it.  When CGI changed all that, comic collecting initially boomed with the crossover interest from new mega-budget movies.  But now super-stuff in movies and TV is commonplace... there simply aren't enough hours in the week for one to watch all the stuff that is available to them, leaving out the video game market on top of that.  It will be interesting to see if comics still hold fascination in super-heroes, now that there is literally no genre that can't be produced for live-action mediums.

I'm not sure that I agree with your theory, but I see the logic of it and it's an entirely reasonable POV. Nevertheless, from my analytical perspective of the era superheroes were a dominent genre in mid-1939 till the end of WWII, not that there wasn't a lot of variety in other comic book genres including detective, western, comedy, teen humor and funny animal (cartoons that either originated from or translated to other media).

Can't agree that comics were "pretty much it" for a super-hero fix because it couldn't be achieved on TV in the 50's. To preface this, keep in mind that the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons were popular in theaters in the 40's and there were a number of popular live action serials in the 40's and early 50's with comic hero characters that let kids to get their Saturday fix. Serial chapters also transferred to TV in the 50's and a lot more exciting than the boring industrial documentaries that were often used as space fillers in lieu of syndicated reruns, regional or local programming.

TV reached most living rooms between 1948 and 1955 (I would've said reached its zenith by '55, but there were other TV brands).  

George Reeves starring in The Adventures of Superman was very successful from 1951 through '57 (in color by '54), with outstanding FX for the time though clearly on a tight budget. What changed was that superheroes ...with about a half dozen exceptions... were almost a dead genre between the end of the war and late 1950's; these exceptions hung on while crime, horror, romance, western and science fiction dominated comic market readership until public outrage and the CCA almost wiped comics out completely.

You're right about the limitless scope of live-action now, but genre fiction only thrives if the storytelling is convincing and not so reliant on action FX that it interferes with telling a good story. The fascination with "comics" as an all encompassing genre will continue into the foreseeable future as collecting is trans-generational. And my prediction is that super-heroes will survive in other mediums that aren't dependent upon regularly published comics.

The $64,000 question ...for those who can still make a connection with that period reference... will be which type of heroic character stories survive longer, Homer's Iliad & Odyssey or Simpson. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
ALE!

[pemart1966]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:18 PM, Point Five said:

Oh noez, not that! Think of the CHILDREN!   

 

Bugs appeared in drag MANY times in the cartoons so seeing him as such on a comic book cover - not shocking.

[pemart1966]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:40 PM, adamstrange said:

Golden Age represents the golden age of superheroes when they went from being 13% share of a very small market in 1938 to a 54% share of a much larger market in 1941.  In June 1941, there are 57 comics, 42 of which are arguably mostly super-hero based. 

Help me out with the math - you say that in '41, superhero books  had a 54% share of the market and that in June of that year 42 of 57 were superhero based - that's almost 74%.  Some of those 15 (57 - 42 = 15) books were undoubtably not kids books (e.g. crime; romance)

I'd want to know year end totals all years - # of titles - superhero vs kids books AND overall sales number for the same.

[adamstrange]

On 11/21/2023 at 8:31 AM, pemart1966 said:

Help me out with the math - you say that in '41, superhero books  had a 54% share of the market

Source:  Gerber PhotoJournal

On 11/21/2023 at 8:31 AM, pemart1966 said:

June of that year 42 of 57 were superhero based - that's almost 74%

Source:  me

On 11/21/2023 at 8:31 AM, pemart1966 said:

I'd want to know year end totals all years - # of titles - superhero vs kids books AND overall sales number for the same.

Let me know when you're done

[sfcityduck]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:26 PM, IngelsFan said:

I’m a big fan of some of the cartoon comics, and one reason I feel that they don’t have the same popularity is that there are few “first appearances” in the comics. So you have to settle for “first comic book appearance” which does not carry the same weight. For example, Action Comics 1 is the first appearance of Superman, anywhere. I struggle to think of a cartoon character parallel from the GA. Combine that with the fact that even a lot of the first comic book appearances aren’t well-documented, and it makes for a hard jumping on point for traditional collectors, even those familiar with the cartoons.

Except that print appearances pre-dated film appearances of most major Disney Duck characters.