ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:16 PM, comicwiz said:

Surface observation, but in those instances where a 'different' appearing book was distinguished, with artwork being in an ever so slightly different position, and often extending outside the edges, can we rule out micro-trimming? It seems on that NM 98, that soft blc could have benefitted from cutting dominoes foot off slightly. 

The spines are different. If you look at the top staple on the NM #98s, the artwork relative to the top staple is different. This is the smoking gun, not the right edge. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:03 AM, VintageComics said:

We're living in a time when 1+1 = 5. No wonder we can't have world peace. 

On 12/20/2023 at 7:03 AM, VintageComics said:

Everyone wants a perfect product but even in NASA a perfect product doesn't exist, so how many quality control problems per 1 million is considered OK?

Apples and Oranges. The cost of QC perfection at NASA is astronomical but protects lives. The cost of QC perfection at CGC is managing some hourly wage employees properly.

[Timed]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:03 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

If nothing else, CGC should be taking a look at his submission history.

That's the bare minimum and more like one of the first steps that needs to be taken to get to the bottom of this. We have two confirmed cases of fraud by this seller, costing over $27,000 in just those two books, and these are just two that have sold recently where we have photographic proof of the reholdered books being different than the originals.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Seems like it might now be worth starting a new thread to more easily highlight these shenanigans.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:01 PM, Timed said:

There it is; this is in fact the nail in the coffin.

The submitter for the reholders needs to be contacted by the authorities ASAP.

What is established is that it wasn't just the custom label change loophole that some thought may have been the case as the NM #98 didn't get a custom label.

On 12/19/2023 at 6:26 PM, comicwiz said:

Can someone just place the dates as well as to when these were first tracked, and a notation on which is believed to have been swapped?

The NM #98 is obviously chronological because it's in a Generation 2 label 1st and a Generation 3 label 2nd. 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:05 PM, VintageComics said:

The spines are different. If you look at the top staple on the NM #98s, the artwork relative to the top staple is different. This is the smoking gun, not the right edge. 

Or just find the bottom staple on the old front slab image. Because you can't. Clearly 2 different books.

Edited December 20, 2023 by WestcoastDAVEngers

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:14 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Or just find the bottom staple on the old front slab image. Because you can't. Clearly 2 different books.

Fair, but once I saw the top staple I just stopped looking. 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:16 PM, VintageComics said:

Fair, but once I saw the top staple I just stopped looking. 

Totally, there's enough visible signs, maybe even enough for Stevie Wonder to tell it's not the same book

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:54 PM, GDN said:

I'd certainly stay away from his MJ books.  The scam only makes him a profit if he swaps in a lower grade MJ.  His regular newsstands are likely true 9.8s as those are the ones he uses to get the case/CGC# and then sends them in RAW to get the new 9.8 and new CGC #.

However, I certainly would never support this guy by buying anything off him even the true 9.8 newsstands.

I wouldn't put any money on that.

Like I've been saying all along, a big chunk of his sold books have custom labels.

I think the MJ fraud came from the massive 16K NM 9.8 sale of a legitmately documented MJ book earlier this year.

I think a big part of his scam was slide lower grade books in to 9.8 holders and labels, and ask for custom labels.

[VintageComics]

In similar vein as the scammer from the NW who was printing CGC labels earlier this year, this is another good reason to only buy from a reputable seller. 

[sledgehammer]

This is the legitimate(? )16K sale from February (GPA), that might have gotten scamboy rolling.

This has sold multiple times over the years, and was graded originally as an MJ book.

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1011019003/

[Nick Furious]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:22 PM, sledgehammer said:

I wouldn't put any money on that.

Like I've been saying all along, a big chunk of his sold books have custom labels.

I think the MJ fraud came from the massive 16K NM 9.8 sale of a legitmately documented MJ book earlier this year.

I think a big part of his scam was slide lower grade books in to 9.8 holders and labels, and ask for custom labels.

I agree, the " Unrecognized MJ" scam is lucrative, but you can only go to that well every so often to avoid raising suspicions at CGC.  We have evidence now of it happening twice.  I would assume there is a side-hustle of turning non-MJ Newsstand 9.4's or 9.6's into 9.8's as well.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:03 PM, VintageComics said:

How many people complain about quality control on this forum is meaningless. The only people that know the percentages are CGC.

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Everyone wants a perfect product but even in NASA a perfect product doesn't exist, so how many quality control problems per 1 million is considered OK?

So you quoted me when I was right and just repeated what I said, I guess you can't resist it like whatever catnip that is your vernacular.

Otherwise idk your point in repeating what I said as a matter of fact not opinion.

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:27 PM, Nick Furious said:

I agree, the " Unrecognized MJ" scam is lucrative, but you can only go to that well every so often to avoid raising suspicions at CGC.  We have evidence now of it happening twice.  I would assume there is a side-hustle of turning non-MJ Newsstand 9.4's or 9.6's into 9.8's as well.  

There's even a chance of this being married in with the NM 98.

I just checked 3 different raw 98 MJ on ebay vs a newsstand 98 in my hands and the staple placement is identical. Some books it's not but this one it is. If I can figure that out in a few seconds, someone doing this kind of scam for profit can figure it out. 

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:08 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 12/19/2023 at 7:03 PM, VintageComics said:

We're living in a time when 1+1 = 5. No wonder we can't have world peace. 

On 12/19/2023 at 7:03 PM, VintageComics said:

Everyone wants a perfect product but even in NASA a perfect product doesn't exist, so how many quality control problems per 1 million is considered OK?

Apples and Oranges. The cost of QC perfection at NASA is astronomical but protects lives. The cost of QC perfection at CGC is managing some hourly wage employees properly.

You've already been locked out of the movie forum for trolling and you keep trolling me to get a response from me. 

I'm going to point out why I don't respond, again:

I stated that if even NASA, a company with the highest QC standards in any industry can't provide a perfect product then how can anyone expect CGC QC to provide a perfect product. So I asked how many QC problems are acceptable?

You replied with something entirely irrelevant and illogical, explaining that NASA has tighter QC than CGC.

Duh, no Shizzle Sherlock. 

Back to ignoring you. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:51 PM, VintageComics said:

 

So I was correct but a little late to the game and you two needed to pipe up anyway?

I know my posts are like catnip to you but relax. 

That was just a ribbing @VintageComics to relate to you how I initially took this post in relevance to the topic 

So don't take it the wrong way.

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

So you quoted me when I was right and just repeated what I said, I guess you can't resist it like whatever catnip that is your vernacular.

Otherwise idk your point in repeating what I said as a matter of fact not opinion.

You stated this:

On 12/19/2023 at 5:49 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I will say the mess ups haven't been a lot as of late, that we know of or at least reported here.

Well compared to the past couple of years.

I took that as you saying "they haven't made a lot of mistakes lately that we know of here" and I replied with this:

On 12/19/2023 at 7:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 12/19/2023 at 7:03 PM, VintageComics said:

How many people complain about quality control on this forum is meaningless. The only people that know the percentages are CGC.

My reply means "it doesn't matter whether the CGC forums complain a little or a lot, it's not representative of the actual numbers. Only CGC knows for sure."

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing or taking objection with?

[MAR1979]

 

^

Edited December 20, 2023 by MAR1979

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:33 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

That was just a ribbing @VintageComics to relate to you how I initially took this post in relevance to the topic 

So don't take it the wrong way.

 

I didn't take offense. I just didn't get the joke.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:37 PM, VintageComics said:

I didn't take offense. I just didn't get the joke.

Ya I don't know the situation in totality, I appreciate the clarification, but to the point I really don't think CGC does either.... Perhaps.

Or they only know what is reported if that makes sense, so to THAT point, what is reported publicly has validity.

When you stated it was meaningless or futile, it's what we have to work with is all. People could promote the boards or get to more issues and keep track, which I think this YouTuber was trying to accomplish. If it weren't for the astronomical price range of the sale, it would largely go unnoticed, which is the underlying (still opinion) of everyone who cares. Not to put to fine a point but that's not trivial or meaningless. (Not saying your saying that either.)

The 'just a joke", was I didn't believe anyone was out to annoy you earlier either, which has similar connotations. Back to the regular story. Or I'll just say I couldn't resist 😜

Edited December 20, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM