ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ThothAmon]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:53 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's not my opinion. I think that he is using a sonic welder, on everything that he sends to CGC. on the MJ insert books, he probably just noted to CGC that he thinks they may have missed the MJ insert, because it can be seen in the book, even though it is not noted in the grading notes. 

I think that the number of times he has noted that to CGC, is far lower than the number of times that he sent in lower graded books, in higher graded slabs, and asked for new custom labels on the higher graded slabs.

then he also submits the higher graded books, that were originally in those higher graded slabs. maybe he also asks for custom labels on those.

I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at all if something is being done to make the book look untampered with. I was thinking a particle accelerator myself. 

[sledgehammer]

that's the nice thing about the custom label. If you ask for one, it would not warrant the same scrutiny to the grade of the book that damage to the slab would warrant.

[Mikey C]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:53 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's not my opinion. I think that he is using a sonic welder, on everything that he sends to CGC. on the MJ insert books, he probably just noted to CGC that he thinks they may have missed the MJ insert, because it can be seen in the book, even though it is not noted in the grading notes. 

I think that the number of times he has noted that to CGC, is far lower than the number of times that he sent in lower graded books, in higher graded slabs, and asked for new custom labels on the higher graded slabs.

then he also submits the higher graded books, that were originally in those higher graded slabs. maybe he also asks for custom labels on those.

The 252 9.8 he bought in August, took out and replaced with the lower grade MJ was regraded a 9.8 newsstand in September and resold for $1,800 on 10/3. Total double dip. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:55 PM, ThothAmon said:

I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at all if something is being done to make the book look untampered with. I was thinking a particle accelerator myself. 

I don't think that we're dealing with a rocket scientist.

[comicwiz]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:51 PM, ThothAmon said:

Exactly. Who’s to say how much or how little attention the CGC crew paid but the very existence of the labels speak for themselves. Res ipsa loquitar. 

Any other way of submitting would not keep the s/n the same. It's a heck of a claim, and requires someone to corner the market on MJ inserts on key books. Not that it's impossible to pull off, but you do have to work within the parameter of using lower grade, but still good presenting examples, that may pass suspicion if the defects impacting grade could be explained with comics shifting around in the inner well and getting dinged during transit. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:56 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's the nice thing about the custom label. If you ask for one, it would not warrant the same scrutiny to the grade of the book that damage to the slab would warrant.

As someone who can grade better than 99.9% of the people out there, and I'd rival my grading skills against anybody except a CGC grader, I have a very hard time believing they'd blindly put a 9.2/9.4 looking book into a CGC holder. The differences are quite literally glaring. 

It's possible, but I just find it hard to believe. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:57 PM, Mikey C said:

The 252 9.8 he bought in August, took out and replaced with the lower grade MJ was regraded a 9.8 newsstand in September and resold for $1,800 on 10/3. Total double dip. 

yes, they did look identical.

[comicwiz]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:53 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's not my opinion. I think that he is using a sonic welder

Just so I'm clear on this, are you saying he's got sonic seal equipment to seal the outer case, or the inner well? Or both?

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

Me and 9.9 are going live in 30 mins and we're gonna update everyone on the NM 98, I really really appreciate the photos on those!

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:01 PM, comicwiz said:

Just so I'm clear on this, are you saying he's got sonic seal equipment to seal the outer case, or the inner well? Or both?

my guess is that's what he's doing to the outer case. If he sent that ASM 252, back to CGC in a case that they could not tell had been resealed, it's much more likely that whoever does the re-holders, did not give a whole lot of scrutiny to the book that was now inside that slab. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:55 PM, VintageComics said:

CGC has graded over 10 MILLION comics. 

You can have 10,000 errors and it's still only a tiny percentage.

That means with 10,000 mistakes you'd have an error margin of 0.001%

Check your math. It would be a 0.1% margin of error.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:51 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Ends in 2.5 hours….

 

On 12/19/2023 at 7:53 PM, Mikey C said:

It’s currently at $5,599 with 33 bids and just over 2 hours left. It’s a super clean looking book but who knows….

Appreciated! It'll be after the news, and or I'll be zonked out, will have to save that news for tomorrow. 

Again thanks

[Silver Surfer]

I wonder if they will tell this guy to “leave the hobby!”

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:04 PM, mephistopheles said:

On 12/19/2023 at 4:55 PM, VintageComics said:

CGC has graded over 10 MILLION comics. 

You can have 10,000 errors and it's still only a tiny percentage.

That means with 10,000 mistakes you'd have an error margin of 0.001%

Check your math. It would be a 0.1% margin of error.

You're right. 

0.1% margin of error or 0.001 as a decimal. My bad. Just rushing. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:13 PM, Silver Surfer said:

I wonder if they will tell this guy to “leave the hobby!”

AFAIK it'd be easy for them to lay blame, if confirmed, but there is some culpability there for cgc and they need these checks and balances, even these kinds of issues of gripes and suspicions of collectors, if they're truly to find out about it. We may not get an interrogation or other conspirators. They may not even release the extent this "one" person went too. If that happens collectors are still left holding the bag so 🙏 

They may know a certain amount of confirmed fixed mechanical errors, but it's this kind of thing that almost could go on indefinitely that needs to sound another alarm at their base! 

Edited December 20, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Nick Furious]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:17 PM, VintageComics said:

You're right. 

0.1% margin of error or 0.001 as a decimal. My bad. Just rushing. 

This situation is different than Quality Control.  This is about not providing proper scrutiny where scrutiny was warranted.  The book was resubmitted with the claim that what is inside the case is different than what is on the label.  And that difference increases the value by 7X, or about $`14,000.  It should have warranted scrutiny.  At 7.0, who cares.  But at 9.8, the caution flags need to go up.  That just needs to be systemic in the process.  

Edited December 20, 2023 by Nick Furious

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:02 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Me and 9.9 are going live in 30 mins and we're gonna update everyone on the NM 98, I really really appreciate the photos on those!

 

 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:56 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's the nice thing about the custom label. If you ask for one, it would not warrant the same scrutiny to the grade of the book that damage to the slab would warrant.

But in the case of the 252, he told them it was an MJV, which means they should have opened it to check before adding it to the label.

They took his word for it and just put a new label in a new case with the wrong book.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:05 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

Appreciated! It'll be after the news, and or I'll be zonked out, will have to save that news for tomorrow. 

Again thanks

well, this may be shocking. When I said that I took a look at the bidding, on the ASM 252, and my gut instinct was that the second place bidder was a shill, believe it or not the current second place bidder on the MSH 8, has the same feedback count as that ASM 252 runner up. 316. Even more clinching, his bid was placed six days ago, to lock in the $12,000 number. 

It amuses me to no end, just how stupid some of these guys are. Why anyone would drop serious coin on one of these eBay auctions, just astounds me.

Edited December 20, 2023 by sledgehammer

[VintageComics]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:41 PM, Sigur Ros said:

On 12/19/2023 at 8:56 PM, sledgehammer said:

that's the nice thing about the custom label. If you ask for one, it would not warrant the same scrutiny to the grade of the book that damage to the slab would warrant.

But in the case of the 252, he told them it was an MJV, which means they should have opened it to check before adding it to the label.

They took his word for it and just put a new label in a new case with the wrong book.

If you two believe CGC just gave out a new label without opening the holder, you're crazy. 

This sort of speculation is just plain ridiculous now. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by VintageComics