ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[wombat]

At least some Facebook groups are allowing the information to get out there. 

[Silver Surfer]

I’ve seen that hand writing sample for years.

[drotto]

Should we follow this auction to see where it ends up?  Apparently, this is already a sold then relisted item, then pulled.

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176130433379

Edited December 26, 2023 by drotto

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:46 AM, drotto said:

Should we follow this auction to see where it ends up?  Apparently, this is already a sold then relisted item.

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176130433379

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:46 AM, drotto said:

Should we follow this auction to see where it ends up?  Apparently, this is already a sold then relisted item, then pulled.

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176130433379

What was the book?

[drotto]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:48 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

 

I know.  Was a Raw MJ NM98.  Not seeing who listed it.

Edited December 26, 2023 by drotto

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:19 AM, GDN said:

CGC isn't regrading during the reholder so the unique certification # still shows up in CGC database with its original grading date (which is the date of a different book) even though it shows the new photos of the book with new label (often custom label).

The "blue" grading date is actually the date the book that was swapped out of the blue case was graded and not the date of the reholder.  This is why the timeline of the green label grading date and the frankensteined blue label grading date don't have to make sense in continuity.

Thank you for that clarification. Based on what you're saying, this now goes back to being a re-holdering scam EVERY TIME. To go through a time line, let's use Comicwiz's recent posting as an example.

-  9/6/2022 - CGC grades a 6.5 copy submitted by a random collector or potentially by the scammer (if he obtained a raw copy somewhere).

-  11/16/2022 - CGC grades a qualified 6.0 copy submitted by a random collector or perhaps the scammer if he's able to find raw copies for cheap in the distant past.

- Sometime between September 2022 and April 2023 the scammer buys the CGC graded unrestored 6.5 copy (or uses one of his raw copies). I can't see this original sale on GPA (as well as other examples Comicwiz posted), which leads me to believe the scammer is either buying these books from someone who doesn't report sales to GPA or he's been hoarding multiple raw copies of key books like Hulk 181, ASM 238, etc. and is sending them in to be graded first.  He probably got them for cheap 5, 10, 15 years ago.

- On 2/23/2023 the scammer buys the raw qualified 6.0 copy. Not sure if this sale is legit or he bought his own copy.

- Sometime between February 23, 2023 and April 11, 2023, the scammer switches the books and sends the qualified book with the 6.5 blue label to CGC for re-holdering.

- At some point thereafter, he has the original unrestored 6.5 copy regraded by CGC to restart the process.

[paqart]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:16 AM, Prince Namor said:

This dude is probably reading this thread... I wonder what's going on inside his head right now...

I've been wondering which poster he is.

[comicwiz]

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 6.5 that became a Universal 7.0. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4089133002 - CGC Qualifed 6.5 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4146028001 - CGC Universal 7.0 - Hulk 181

NOTE: @mephistopheles or anyone that is able to mine better pics for 4089133002 - Qualified 6.5 Hulk 181 sold Nov 7th, 2022 - $3000 - please post them and tag me. I'll replace them with the ones I've got for the time being.

 

[brute_nm]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Yes, but it's not my call.  Maybe @spidermanbeyond can edit the first post in the thread with a list of all of the books that Joe does this with, and when.

I have been updating a "cliffnotes/summary" post on page 72.  @spidermanbeyond was kind enough to link it on his very first post so people can get the info as soon as they open the thread.

@comicwiz, please let me know if I've missed any.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by brute_nm

[comicwiz]

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, crimped corners, but they are very difficult to pick-up for the blurry scans available to me on WP. I wasn't even able to pull a certificaiton date off it initially and needed to jump on another source to mine it based on the grade, sold date and amount. The one clincher for me is the soiling pattern (could be large foxing blotch) but it is not only in the exact same upper right corner location, but the outline is 100% exact. Again, it will be difficult to see it on the qualified example pics, but look at the blue label back cover pic and then the qualified, and you will see it's an exact match. 

4089133002 - CGC Qualified 6.5 - Hulk 1818 - Sold Nov 7, 2022 - $3000 (GD: 08/01/2022)

Mad props to @WestcoastDAVEngers and @mephistopheles - the cleare/better pics really help match this! 

4146028001 - CGC Universal 7.0 - Hulk 181 - Sold Feb 6, 2023 - $5100 (GD: 10/27/2022)

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by comicwiz

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:08 AM, comicwiz said:

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, crimped corners, but they are very difficult to pick-up for the blurry scans available to me on WP. I wasn't even able to pull a certificaiton date off it initially and need to jump on another source to mine it based on the grade, sold date and amount. The one clincher for me is the soiling pattern (could be large foxing blotch) but it is not only in the exact same upper right corner location, but the outline is 100% exact. Again, it will be difficult to see it on the qualified example pics, but look at the blue label back cover pic and then the qualified, and you will see it's an exact match. 

4155507003 - CGC Qualified 6.0 - Hulk 1818 - Sold Feb 13, 2023 - $2750 (GD: 11/16/2022)

 

4120217003 - CGC Universal 6.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold Apr 11, 2023 - $4216 (GD: 09/06/2022)

The white color-breaker in the letter "U" in Hulk. That would be the biggest clue for me

Edited December 26, 2023 by WestcoastDAVEngers
whoopsie It's early for me

[MAR1979]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:59 AM, paqart said:

I've been wondering which poster he is.

I've no idea of that but was able to obtain an image of the perp

 

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:34 PM, Lightning55 said:

Is it to create fake market data, influence prices? Quite involved for that, to drive up values on books you are holding.

You can say it's "more involved" but any plan that ONLY involves online shenanigans is a whole lot easier than a plan that requires a sonic welder.

 

My point isn't actually trying to prove that it's "a fake auction scam" vs a "fake slab scam" my point is that we don't need the conspiracy theory about and inside man in their reholdering department to hold CGC accountable. If people can make their own slabs or swap and reseal with the finished product looking so good that CGC can't even tell, then the real problem is so much bigger than "a conspiracy to reholder". If slabs aren't tamper proof then graded books no longer deserve to carry a premium in the market. And when CGCing a book doesn't provide value to the customer, their business becomes unsustainable. When that happens, whoever they're getting their plastic from is just going to bring 'em to market and sell empties, further eroding the value of CGC'd books.

 

There are 3 possible problems that fit the facts I've seen:

1. Slabs are not tamper proof or people are counterfeiting slabs (sonic welders aren't that rare). They look so good that that even CGC can't tell they've been tampered with during their reholdering process.

2. A bunch of questionable, high value sales of bronze age mega-keys were faked on eBay.

3. A grader at CGC employee during the reholdering process is upgrading and removing listed defects from books that either he or an associate plan to sell on eBay.

 

I keep seeing people talking about CGC needing to fix their reholdering process but that's not where any of these problems are actually coming from. Problem #1 originates from their slabbing process. Problem #2 originates from eBays flawed user verification process. And the conspiracy angle, Problem #3 doesn't start @ reholdering, it starts at hiring. CGC would have had to hire a fraudster and then given him no oversight at all for several years for #3 to be the problem.

 

Problem #3 is the Swagglehaus version and it means that CGC is a hive of villainy, a place where fraudsters are given the resources and room to grow and flourish...but I honestly don't believe that's the case. But problem #1 represents the real biggest threat to CGC. #1 being the case would be an existential threat that CGC could not survive. Personally I think #2 is the most likely, that this is a just bunch of dudes spiraling about fake data they found on social media websites (ebay included). I just think out of the possibilities of "fake slabs", "fake sales" or "inside man", #3 is the least likely and the most inflammatory allegation against CGC. You're ascribing the company itself has having the intent to defraud and that's just kinda implausible.

[sledgehammer]

It's the same book.  What looks like a bit of white at the top of the front cover spine, is certainly more inner well visual tricks.

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

These should be a little better scans...

[fast eddie]

An incredible amount of work is being put into untangling this scam,,,,,, I agree the Hulk 181's should have their own thread ,,,,,,, it would be a sensible start to a somewhat tragic conclusion.

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:14 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

These should be a little better scans...

That's it! Nice job!! Will replace and drop you're tag as contributor for clearer pics. Thank-you!

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:14 AM, sledgehammer said:

It's the same book.  What looks like a bit of white at the top of the front cover spine, is certainly more inner well visual tricks.

After looking at the better scan, this one might be pressed too.

[THE_BEYONDER]

How many compromised 181s is that now?