ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[silent06]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:04 AM, EastEnd1 said:

From my experience, Ebay is VERY pro-buyer in these situations.  Once the postal tracking shows the item as "delivered" to the seller, the seller with have a short period of time to issue the refund (might be two days?).  If he/she doesn't, Ebay will take the funds from their account, whether that be their built up managed payments account with Ebay (Ebay may already be withholding large receipts in his managed payments account due to the high negative feedback he's received or because of the high volume of returns, or because they've become aware of this fraud situation).  If there aren't enough funds in the managed payments account, they'll pull from the credit card and/or bank account the seller has registered with Ebay.  If he claims the item was not received back in the same condition, he would have to show proof... pictures, etc.  Again, Ebay is so pro-buyer, it will be difficult I think for him to avoid issuing the refund.  Unless of course he simply closes everything and just disappears.  Not sure if you've done this, but definitely call Ebay and file a case with them so they'd tag/freeze his account to the extent it hasn't happened already.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 8:48 AM, Paul III said:

I just went through this with something I sold on eBay that was returned to me. As soon as you have the return shipping label eBay has already taken the money out of his account and put it aside. I would also call eBay directly and ask there advice to the bigger picture. Maybe they would have you mail it to them.

Thank you both for the information. If that is the protocol or procedure that Ebay uses to handle these situations, then I guess it is best for me to use the pre-printed shipping label they provided so that Ebay can track and verify the return shipments were delivered.

On 12/24/2023 at 11:29 PM, Lightning55 said:

With Registered, it is kept out of the regular mail stream, with a chain of custody under lock and key.

As for the pre-printed label, you will not be able to add services to it at the counter.

Understanding that I can not add services using the pre-printed shipping label, it means I will not be able to add a signature requirement or insurance. Is it possible that Ebay has already insured the return shipments for the appropriate valuation of each book/purchase?

[Genuine Article Comics]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:34 PM, BCR said:

I actually disagree. I think re-holdered books will be scrutinized more aggressively by buyers. I think buyers will finally be more discerning when it comes to buying a book based just on grade. Actually look at the book you’re buying, ya know? Have your OWN grading system that you can apply to the book. 
 

of course books with tattoos, coupons, etc, I think those will require an investigation if they’re in the new label. 
 

Also, this won’t have any impact whatsoever on modern books tbh. This is more of an issue for bronze, silver and golden age. 
 

And further? I think we’ll see a policy change at CGC where re-hollering is now a new grading (which is what it should have always been). 
 

Last, I genuinely could see CBCS getting a bit of a boost because of this. 

I hope you are correct in CGC addressing their reholder process.

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:11 PM, drporkchop said:

Sorry for the late reply, this thread keeps going even during xmas.

I paid by credit card as the Paypal exchange to Canada is unfavorable. I looked through the ebay Invoice and there is no address or name as the seller is in the US. I only remembered being upset at the 9.8 with multiple spine ticks, so looked at the box and saw his name Brees, just like @silent06 confirmed, and then messaged him directly for refund. The ebay return label was for DHL shipping direct to their eBay international hub at Glendale Heights IL, which I presume got forwarded to his home in Forest Hills, NY.

Who knows if Brees Riva/Rivas is his real full name. Might be a pseudonym or nick name just like how Richards go by , or Roberts go by Bob. He could be using his girlfriend Brees Riva the flight attendant someone found and using it to hide his true alias

All good.

At this point, I believe it's safe to say, based on what I know, that the BR name is an alias or a relative of some sort and not the actual, alleged person at the center of this.

We live in a strange age, and the reason I'm stating this is so that people out in the real world don't start searching down and hounding BRs out in the real world. 

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:30 PM, darkstar said:

The grade date on the page for the universal copy is the original grading date. It doesn't update when the book is submitted for a re-holder and/or custom label. The book was graded in February and didn't sell until June, plenty of time to have it sent back for a re-holder or custom label.

There is no way someone at CGC could be doing this, to somehow manage to sequester tens or hundreds of shipments from a single submitter, and then be solely responsible for all of those books from intake to shipping? Absolutely not, there is no way the division of labor is broken down like that.  

Who told ya it doesn't update? That's not what I've found.

For example, here's a series of books our special friend submitted for grading. 

Note how most of the books were graded 4-12-2023

With the exception being 4235257005 (and 7001) which were reholdered into a custom label with the date changed to 7-10-2023

Here's notes and the images they took of the book that day. https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257005/

Have a good look at that top staple crease. 

9.8 you say, CGC? Huh... How about that.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by agamoto

[agamoto]

For that matter, take a close look at the scans of that "9.8" ASM 252 graded same day.

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257001/

On what planet is that a 9.8?

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:34 PM, BCR said:

And further? I think we’ll see a policy change at CGC where re-hollering is now a new grading (which is what it should have always been). 

I hope they don’t do this.  If they do this, no one will ever send in another book for reholder in a cracked, or old holder ever again.  With grading be subjective why take the chance?  Myself for example, I worked with a guy for over two years to finally convince him to let me have (through a trade) a 9.9 I needed for my run (it’s the only 9.9 with almost 600 graded).  It’s a beauty but is in an old holder… I know it would present so much better in the new slab but we all know that the chances of it keeping that 9.9 is almost zero if they regrade it.  If they can’t crack a legitimate customer’s book, and reholder it without damaging it themselves then that is another problem altogether.

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:54 PM, Iconic1s said:

I hope they don’t do this.  If they do this, no one will ever send in another book for reholder in a cracked, or old holder ever again.  With grading be subjective why take the chance?  Myself for example, I worked with a guy for over two years to finally convince him to let me have (through a trade) a 9.9 I needed for my run (it’s the only 9.9 with almost 600 graded).  It’s a beauty but is in an old holder… I know it would present so much better in the new slab but we all know that the chances of it keeping that 9.9 is almost zero if they regrade it.  If they can’t crack a legitimate customer’s book, and reholder it without damaging it themselves then that is another problem altogether.

This would never have been an issue had CGC, from the get go, imaged every cover they graded so they could easily check book in hand when sent in for reholder to verify w/o cracking inner well. Boggles my friggin mind that a company, even in 2002, wasn't doing that. 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:56 PM, agamoto said:

This would never have been an issue had CGC, from the get go, imaged every cover they graded so they could easily check book in hand when sent in for reholder to verify w/o cracking inner well. Boggles my friggin mind that a company, even in 2002, wasn't doing that. 

Agree 100%!  Evidently I “reacted” to much today and can’t like anything else 

[silent06]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:21 AM, agamoto said:

The two hulks are the same book. No swapping on that one. I'm surprised it's got a 9.8 based on that crease in the middle of the spine near one of wolverine's claws. You bought it on Comiclink 11/29/2023 and didn't buy it on eBay 10/17/2023? Not surprised, since this guy has a pattern of not completing sales or selling books to himself. Must cost him a bundle in fees. 

I have access to all his archived sales on Worthpoint, but that's only recording what he's sold on eBay. Not sure if there's a way to track the Comic-Link sales, or whatever other platforms he uses. He's moving books via multiple channels for sure, which amazes me. Where he's getting all these books and how he's getting such consistently high grades is another story I'd love to hear about someday.

As for the two ASM 238's you've won. They appear to be legit and not swapped books. The latest sale 4329914003 I didn't see recorded yet on Worthpoint but it's a unique cert to the other dozen 238's he's sold in the past couple of years. 4286977001 checks out. It's the same book sold on eBay as is imaged in the census.

So, if you received the two ASM's, as they appear on the census, and you received that IH340 as shown on the comiclink site and eBay post, then you've got three legit books, by my reckoning. 

Based on what I have read in this thread and understand so far regarding the fraud and deception that are being used to execute this scam, my concern is that the ASM 238s I purchased are possibly either green label qualified books that do not contain the tattoos or have had the tattoos married to the book to create the ASM 238 Newsstands containing the tattoos, Not sure sure if the books used are truly 9.8s of some variation of the books I just mentioned as after he creates them and sends it to CGC the scans of his created 9.8 are what show up on CGC site when you query the certification number on the CGC cert verification website

[wombat]

We all know CGC is not going to turn down money. If people stop reholdering because they don't want to risk a regrade you can be pretty sure they aren't going to do that. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:34 PM, silent06 said:

 

Thank you both for the information. If that is the protocol or procedure that Ebay uses to handle these situations, then I guess it is best for me to use the pre-printed shipping label they provided so that Ebay can track and verify the return shipments were delivered.

Understanding that I can not add services using the pre-printed shipping label, it means I will not be able to add a signature requirement or insurance. Is it possible that Ebay has already insured the return shipments for the appropriate valuation of each book/purchase?

As for your question, I don't think there is a way to know what services were added to the label, without knowing what the label cost, and even then you are guessing.  Maybe eBay knows, so you could call customer service.

You might also enter the tracking number on USPS.  It will show as label created only, but one of the tabs is Product Info (or something to that effect) which tells you if it was Priority, Signature Confirmation, insured, etc.

One way to look at this process is that you are following the Return flow as presented to you, including using the pre-printed label.  I don't know how you would be held responsible for anything that happened after you sent the package with their label, following their exact instructions.  If the seller, or eBay, whoever created the label, was stupid enough not to insure the shipment, that's on them.  If they left it up to you, it would be on you.  And if you paid by credit card, any claims to hold you responsible could be defended by the credit card company.  Maybe eBay itself would cover you because you did what was asked of you.

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:06 PM, silent06 said:

Based on what I have read in this thread and understand so far regarding the fraud and deception that are being used to execute this scam, my concern is that the ASM 238s I purchased are possibly either green label qualified books that do not contain the tattoos or have had the tattoos married to the book to create the ASM 238 Newsstands containing the tattoos, Not sure sure if the books used are truly 9.8s of some variation of the books I just mentioned as after he creates them and sends it to CGC the scans of his created 9.8 are what show up on CGC site when you query the certification number on the CGC cert verification website

I've looked pretty close at all the 238's and I think you're ok there, but holy hell in a handbasket are you ever in your right to question the legitimacy based on what's going on with the seller you're dealing with. I am VERY surprised CGC hasn't jumped in and reached out to you with an offer to compensate you for those books so they can be the ones to crack them out and verify. 

[wombat]

Without stating the obvious, it would be pretty awesome to have video of some of these being cracked out. 

[heroth]

Agamoto, 

Thanks for all  your time!  Have you checked out any ASM 300s?

 

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:14 PM, heroth said:

Agamoto, 

Thanks for all  your time!  Have you checked out any ASM 300s?

 

I did, yeah... Let me find the post.

As mentioned earlier, this is only including the sales he's had on eBay. He may very well have sold other copies on other venues he's confirmed to have his books moved, ie. comiclink, insta, consignment via facebook, possibly shortboxed, etc.

 

[heroth]

thank you!

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:48 PM, agamoto said:

Who told ya it doesn't update? That's not what I've found.

For example, here's a series of books our special friend submitted for grading. 

Note how most of the books were graded 4-12-2023

With the exception being 4235257005 (and 7001) which were reholdered into a custom label with the date changed to 7-10-2023

Here's notes and the images they took of the book that day. https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257005/

Have a good look at that top staple crease. 

9.8 you say, CGC? Huh... How about that.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. If CGC needs to include additional designations on a label or add a custom label during reholdering, then I'm assuming a new date is added because the label is different from before. However, in the examples we've found where the grading dates between the qualified  and unrestored books are within a few days (or negative in some cases), I'm assuming CGC will just reprint the old label and keep the original grading date. I hope someone can provide some additional clarification.

[agamoto]

I should add that someone with more energy than I have right now should take a look at the cert ID's on CGC census for each entire submission series to check when the original submission/grading was and if the dates were updated for reholders or custom labels, and I think they would be despite what others have said about CGC not updating those dates. Those results should be given far greater scrutiny for possible swappin'

I looked at all the ASM 194's, Secret Wars 8's and ASM 238's as well. You can dig through my post history for those if you dare.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:30 PM, darkstar said:

The grade date on the page for the universal copy is the original grading date. It doesn't update when the book is submitted for a re-holder and/or custom label. The book was graded in February and didn't sell until June, plenty of time to have it sent back for a re-holder or custom label.

There is no way someone at CGC could be doing this, to somehow manage to sequester tens or hundreds of shipments from a single submitter, and then be solely responsible for all of those books from intake to shipping? Absolutely not, there is no way the division of labor is broken down like that.  

I'm not talking about a Blue book being switched with a lesser quality Blue book. This Hulk 181 was originally given a Green label, then regraded to Blue, in one working day, so no time for it to be sent to the seller for the switch. You could argue this was a mistake, but that same mistake has happened with 5 other Hulk 181s all sold by the same person. The switch of either the book or the label happened at CGC.

Edited December 26, 2023 by MatterEaterLad

[Gaard]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:09 PM, wombat said:

We all know CGC is not going to turn down money.

Agreed. The question that CGC is NOT asking themselves is "How can we correct this problem?" The question that they ARE asking themselves is "How can we correct this problem as cheaply as possible?"