ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:28 AM, drotto said:

5. It is enough money and a serious enough matter that law enforcement is involved.

I don't think this has been clearly stated.  A Private Investigator and "Outside Council" of some sort doesn't necessarily mean any law enforcement agencies are involved yet.  I posted a question to CGC Mike asking to clarify this.

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:31 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Purely observational, but as I cruise Ebay almost daily - the push for card auctions, card collecting, vault stuff, etc - it seems that there is a big upswing on cards way more than comics. Even in the sports, trading, collectible card categories are far above 'comics' on Ebay's collectibles landing page. I always felt hierarchal links have always been a simple way to determine topic popularity.

Cards are much older than comics and much larger in scope, much like sports have always been more popular than comics. It stands to reason that there will be more card activity and the card hobby will be larger than comics. 

Coins are the same, meaning much older than cards and therefore the coin hobby is much larger than cards as well. 

Remember, million dollar coins have been the norm for some time. Million dollar comics are very recent. 

[captainzombie]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:08 AM, skybolt said:

I think CGC should implement random detailed checks on CGC re-holders moving forward, and note this on their website. If the book was found to be tampered with then additional investigation will be conducted internally to check into the submitter's past history and other books submitted at that time. At least this would act as a deterrent for someone trying to pull something similar.

CGC Mike's response was great. The only question I would have is if moving forward will CGC require a book to be regraded if someone wants to add a designation on the label?

That is a great idea Sky. I know many on the forums do not like comicbookinvestments, but he has some really good ideas on circumventing some of this. @CGC Mike not sure if your product team has thought of some of the ideas (placing the certification in the inner well too) for the inner wells like what he is describing here, but that could help with circumventing some of this in the future.

 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:34 AM, pdags said:

I don't think this has been clearly stated.  A Private Investigator and "Outside Council" of some sort doesn't necessarily mean any law enforcement agencies are involved yet.  I posted a question to CGC Mike asking to clarify this.

I am not sure how much of a response people will get when asking for more detail on a (potential) ongoing legal investigation. I've watched a lot of cop shows on TV and that sort of thing is usually frowned upon in those contexts. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:34 AM, pdags said:

On 12/28/2023 at 10:28 AM, drotto said:

5. It is enough money and a serious enough matter that law enforcement is involved.

I don't think this has been clearly stated.  A Private Investigator and "Outside Council" of some sort doesn't necessarily mean any law enforcement agencies are involved yet.  I posted a question to CGC Mike asking to clarify this.

@drotto

You're already muddying the waters by leaving out the most important part of the line you quoted, which I BOLDED for you below.  

CGC has officially stated that this individual will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

Which part of that did you miss?

On 12/28/2023 at 9:07 AM, CGC Mike said:

CCG and CGC Comics Statement on Holder Tampering Incident

 

We have also retained a leading private investigative service and outside counsel to conduct a comprehensive review of this incident and our processes, and to help ensure that this individual is held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by VintageComics

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:36 AM, captainzombie said:

That is a great idea Sky. I know many on the forums do not like comicbookinvestments, but he has some really good ideas on circumventing some of this. @CGC Mike not sure if your product team has thought of some of the ideas (placing the certification in the inner well too) for the inner wells like what he is describing here, but that could help with circumventing some of this in the future.

 

Placing the certification in the sleeve along with the book was an early suggestion in this thread. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Stefan_W

[carcrawfordfan]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:35 AM, VintageComics said:

Cards are much older than comics and much larger in scope, much like sports have always been more popular than comics. It stands to reason that there will be more card activity and the card hobby will be larger than comics. 

Coins are the same, meaning much older than cards and therefore the coin hobby is much larger than cards as well. 

Remember, million dollar coins have been the norm for some time. Million dollar comics are very recent. 

Yeah, I don't really get this stance. Cards have been and will be more heavily traded than comics for as long as I can ever remember. Besides the fact that cards are based on sports, just think of availability and logistics. Cards are much smaller and easier to send in the mail, house, collect, vault, etc. Cards are also sold just about everywhere that retail exists where comics do not have that. Anyways, I am involved in both hobbies and have been for over 30+ years each. I do agree that cards have had way more scandals and most people don't seem to care at all. Cards are altered every single day and still graded by the grading companies and outed all the time. Nothing ever changes and more and more money just keeps changing hands. I would suggest cards are at a too big to fail crossroads as so much money is involved and invested.

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:31 AM, Kripsys99 said:

Appreciate that CGC finally made a statement, but everything said in the statement could have been said a week ago - it's boilerplate public relations 101:

Also, the bottom line remains that we - and all the world - now know how truly easy CGC slabs are to open and reseal seamlessly. CGC needs to come up with some kind of solution (God knows what) for the millions of easily hackable slabs already in circulation. This guy won't be the last.

The genie is out of the bottle now. A large group of collectors who never gave the subject much thought have been educated on how easy it is to manipulate the holder with a little practice.

Looking at the discussion here, and your post above about tampering with all the slabs currently in circulation now - I think the only real way to preserve the integrity of pre-2024 slabs is to develop a system of provenance, chain of custody or some other way to show that the book in the slab is the one that was submitted. It's going back to the ancient ways of Hard Copy, photographic proof and all those types of things that people thought technology would make obsolete.

There is likely no way to stop this issue at this point - which is what makes it such a serious problem.

[sd2416]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:52 AM, HotKey said:

😁

 

or..

 

Gracias

[captainzombie]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:38 AM, Stefan_W said:

Placing the certification in the sleeve along with the book was an early suggestion in this thread. 

That is good then. I haven't gone through all of the 171 pages,  to see what everyone has suggested.

[wombat]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:34 AM, Dr. Balls said:

On 12/28/2023 at 10:23 AM, wombat said:

The fear here is that they are only going to include books submitted by this one person and not broaden the investigation. Easy to downplay in this way. 

I dunno. I don't see it as a downplay, more like a cautionary stance. No one wants to scream "the sky is falling!" when it's their own reputation on the line. They're probably going forward cautiously and not overstating the problem. I don't see that as underhanded at all - I'm glad it's been addressed.

It still remains a possibility that CGC will not widen the scope and just "assume" it was this one bad actor. There is also the issue of now that we know the slabs can be cracked and put back together pretty well that every case out there can be tampered with and a lower grade book be swapped in without even sending it back to CGC. I have no idea how they would even begin to deal with this. 

[lostboys]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:08 PM, Steven Valdez said:

 

 

"We have already made significant improvements to our processes as a result of this incident..."

 

^^^Interesting

 

I wonder if the significant improvement tp the process was to provide scans of all books, starting this past summer.

I also wonder if thats actually when CGC found out this was happening.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by lostboys

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:34 AM, Dr. Balls said:

 

I dunno. I don't see it as a downplay, more like a cautionary stance. No one wants to scream "the sky is falling!" when it's their own reputation on the line. They're probably going forward cautiously and not overstating the problem. I don't see that as underhanded at all - I'm glad it's been addressed.

I’m hoping it’s only a few hundred books, but I fear it’s much more than that.   

[ADAMANTIUM]

Those awful tamper proof stickers on the sides of the case where it presses together would work.

If a drop happened and chipped a case, the likely hood of case separation wouldn't be all that likely, or not enough to make the tamper proof stickers separate

Sure you wouldn't be able to open the sides to remove newton rings, but one on each side in the middle where the case presses together anyway would work. If the sticker shows ware an automatic regrading needed.

Simple and effective, but idk, just a thought  

[MatterEaterLad]

Public Service Announcement: If someone is always arguing about the argument and has a habit of trying to be the center of every discussion, to the detriment of the actual discourse, just put them on IGNORE.

I did a long time ago. This is a serious discussion. I can't imagine trying to get through 171+ pages with all of that noise.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by MatterEaterLad
typo

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:38 AM, VintageComics said:

You're already muddying the waters by leaving out the most important part of the line you quoted

I disagree.   All I asked was for clarification is if law efforcement agencies are involved.  This information was clearly omitted from the statement when it could've easily been included.  

This involved fraud over mail which is a federal offense (IIRC) and CGC only mentions private investigator and council.  Not to be snarky, but anyone can say they'll "help ensure", but have the FBI been notified?  It seems odd they would recognize this as criminal and their first calls are to a Private Investigator and Council and are unwilling to indicate, "Legal entities have been notified."

Edited December 28, 2023 by pdags

[Mdesimone]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:43 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m hoping it’s only a few hundred books, but I fear it’s much more than that.   

The scammer has 392 feedback on just one of his old eBay names so yeah I’m thinking thousands

[THE_BEYONDER]

When did CGC decide to start imaging ALL books they grade?

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:42 AM, wombat said:

It still remains a possibility that CGC will not widen the scope and just "assume" it was this one bad actor. There is also the issue of now that we know the slabs can be cracked and put back together pretty well that every case out there can be tampered with and a lower grade book be swapped in without even sending it back to CGC. I have no idea how they would even begin to deal with this. 

I'm no expert, but I only see two ways of dealing with it from CGC's standpoint:

1. Encourage everyone to create their own provenance for their submitted books (I've brought this up in previous posts, sorry to keep beating on the subject)

2. Develop a thermochromic pigment application for the inside of the slab (not the well) that can be implemented without changing their entire case design. This will prevent heat-based tampering and can be administered quickly in light of how this problem is going to become bigger as each day passes.

These scenarios are really the only thing I see that can re-assure the confidence in the CGC product. And I also believe it's a solid solution - not half-hearted or sloppy. Thermochromic pigment is a widely-used method to identify heat tampering in plastic. Encouraging people to document their submissions to promote thoroughness is an easy way to put people at ease.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:47 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

When did CGC decide to start imaging ALL books they grade?

I believe they announced it in July of this year.