ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicginger1789]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

“ Based on our initial review, we believe that the incident affects a few hundred comic books.”

This comes across as a premature downplay to me. 

A little bit….kinda like “well we found a couple hundred and are afraid to keep going”

[captainzombie]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:45 AM, Mdesimone said:

The scammer has 392 feedback on just one of his old eBay names so yeah I’m thinking thousands

Lets hope that this scammer is someone from here in the United States, and not someone overseas, because it will probably take quite sometime to find who the actual person is. I know there has been several names tossed around from what I have seen in this thread, but it could be 1 person vs. a ring of people. Ugh. This really does suck. If they did this to CGC, they could have done it to the other company too if they have gotten this good at it.

[darkstar]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:43 AM, lostboys said:

 

"We have already made significant improvements to our processes as a result of this incident..."

 

^^^Interesting

 

I wonder if the significant improvement tp the process was to provide scans of all books, starting this past summer.

I also wonder if thats actually when CGC found out this was happening.

 

 

The scans on a book's cert page are scans from the last time the book was in CGC's possession, not when the book was first graded. They have scans for swapped books on their cert pages...so no, they didn't know anything about this until the community discovered it. 

[wiparker824]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:47 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

When did CGC decide to start imaging ALL books they grade?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/11797/comics-magazine-imaging/
 

press release was beginning of August but those who were submitting at the time started seeing it randomly weeks before then if I recall. 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:49 AM, captainzombie said:

Lets hope that this scammer is someone from here in the United States, and not someone overseas, because it will probably take quite sometime to find who the actual person is. I know there has been several names tossed around from what I have seen in this thread, but it could be 1 person vs. a ring of people. Ugh. This really does suck. If they did this to CGC, they could have done it to the other company too if they have gotten this good at it.

He is , I bought a book from him. Book was listed to be in Arizona, return label said forest hills and was shipped at the Kew gardens post office in queens, I bought the book in 2019

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:49 AM, darkstar said:

The scans on a book's cert page are scans from the last time the book was in CGC's possession, not when the book was first graded.

Not necessarily.  There’s a 9.8 MJ X-men 266 that’s been previously posted about, where the scans on the cert page show the book without its current custom label. 
 

Cert page:

current status:

Edited December 28, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:44 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Those awful tamper proof stickers on the sides of the case where it presses together would work.

If a drop happened and chipped a case, the likely hood of case separation wouldn't be all that likely, or not enough to make the tamper proof stickers separate

Sure you wouldn't be able to open the sides to remove newton rings, but one on each side in the middle where the case presses together anyway would work. If the sticker shows ware an automatic regrading needed.

Simple and effective, but idk, just a thought  

Not a fan of that to be honest. 

1 - There are methods to remove "tamper proof" stickers and reattach them.  Whatever they come up with, I could point anyone in the direction of a few people that can come up with a way to safely remove and then reattach them later with new glue and make it look like it was never tampered with. 

2 - The stickers will become frayed or lose their adhesiveness over the years anyway.  After around five years in your possession, you will be dealing more than ever with people grading the condition of the slab and not the book if you look to sell. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:49 AM, captainzombie said:

Lets hope that this scammer is someone from here in the United States, and not someone overseas, because it will probably take quite sometime to find who the actual person is. 

Let's hope he is still IN the United States.

[Heronext]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:25 AM, Heronext said:

eBay should allow sales of CGC-slabbed comics only with a hand-entered serial number and a direct link back to the CGC cert lookup page (ebay-embedded and nothing to do with the lister's description)

I just noticed Heritage is already doing this

 

 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:48 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I'm no expert, but I only see two ways of dealing with it from CGC's standpoint:

2. Develop a thermochromic pigment application for the inside of the slab (not the well) that can be implemented without changing their entire case design. This will prevent heat-based tampering and can be administered quickly in light of how this problem is going to become bigger as each day passes.

 

Pigment application could easily discolor over time 5-10 years leading questions over validity of a slab when none should exist. 

[Silver Surfer]

So maybe they have been aware of this for months, but I don’t want to speculate. 

[BrashL]

Good to see them finally respond, and not surprised as Mike's statement was definitely run by some lawyers before he posted. Liability has to be a huge concern right now. As others have stated, a few hundred books may be related to one individual but realistically the number probably can never be known due to the ease at which the slabs can be opened and switched out. I think we have to assume the worst. 

The changes to the case people have suggested are all good and something must be changed, but that still leaves the issue of all the books in older cases which would rightly be devalued against the new ones. I think a reasonable compromise is CGC should offer discounted reholdering for any slab with checks for tampering either in the case itself or in the chain of custody. If issues are found they can compensate the difference (in cash, not CGC bucks!) and if not the book will now have the correct market value. Slowly you'd clean up the supply and do right by customers. It's probably gonna cost them but there's no way around that at this point.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:59 AM, Buzzetta said:

Not a fan of that to be honest. 

1 - There are methods to remove "tamper proof" stickers and reattach them.  Whatever they come up with, I could point anyone in the direction of a few people that can come up with a way to safely remove and then reattach them later with new glue and make it look like it was never tampered with. 

2 - The stickers will become frayed or lose their adhesiveness over the years anyway.  After around five years in your possession, you will be dealing more than ever with people grading the condition of the slab and not the book if you look to sell. 

Ya just spit balling, but that makes sense, back to the drawing board or nailing it shut

Edited December 28, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[sledgehammer]

The use of "initial review" is not some careless wording.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:04 AM, sledgehammer said:

The use of "initial review" is not some careless wording.

Exactly.  Hence my comment. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, sledgehammer said:

The use of "initial review" is not some careless wording.

Exactly.  Hence my comment. 

Indeed. hence my even earlier comment.

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:01 AM, Buzzetta said:

Pigment application could easily discolor over time 5-10 years leading questions over validity of a slab when none should exist. 

Thermochromic pigment will fade over time when exposed to UV (which, arguably, no one should be doing in the first place), but I don't know if there is a discoloration involved as time goes on. Worth finding out, though - because no one would want that - however, if the pigment was applied to the post inserts and post, there would likely be not much of an issue - as long as the discoloration did not appear to be the same shade as the "tamper" color.

[drotto]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:45 AM, pdags said:

I disagree.   All I asked was for clarification is if law efforcement agencies are involved.  This information was clearly omitted from the statement when it could've easily been included.  

This involved fraud over mail which is a federal offense (IIRC) and CGC only mentions private investigator and council.  Not to be snarky, but anyone can say they'll "help ensure", but have the FBI been notified?  It seems odd they would recognize this as criminal and their first calls are to a Private Investigator and Council and are unwilling to indicate, "Legal entities have been notified."

I re-read the statement and it says the individual will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, not the authorities have been contacted and are involved. 

 

To me that means they are still investigating with their people, and the authorities have not been brought in yet. CGC wants all their ducks in a row, and wants to understand their liability before law inforcement is brought in.  I trust the individuals will be prosecuted, but stand by my initial statement.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Thermochromic pigment will fade over time when exposed to UV (which, arguably, no one should be doing in the first place), but I don't know if there is a discoloration involved as time goes on. Worth finding out, though - because no one would want that - however, if the pigment was applied to the post inserts and post, there would likely be not much of an issue - as long as the discoloration did not appear to be the same shade as the "tamper" color.

That would make sense to put it on the posts only as over time the worst that happens is that you would get a slight discoloration in the corners.

Now, what do you do about the other million or so slabs out there before that?  My collection is now worthless because the validity is challenged due to the slabs NOT having this feature?  

This is a real problem no matter what they do moving forward. 

[BrashL]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:59 AM, Buzzetta said:

Not a fan of that to be honest. 

1 - There are methods to remove "tamper proof" stickers and reattach them.  Whatever they come up with, I could point anyone in the direction of a few people that can come up with a way to safely remove and then reattach them later with new glue and make it look like it was never tampered with. 

2 - The stickers will become frayed or lose their adhesiveness over the years anyway.  After around five years in your possession, you will be dealing more than ever with people grading the condition of the slab and not the book if you look to sell. 

I don't think changes to the case of that nature are the answer anyway, it just creates a new arms race and no system is unbreakable, at least not at a cost that makes the business viable. The solution here is pretty simple actually and I hope they implement something similar:

• Every book gets Grader Notes, every single one (OK maybe not a 10)
• Every single book gets a high res picture front and back
• Every note related to the cover or back of the book is annotated in the picture, with the defect circled, marked, whatever

Essentially create a unique fingerprint for every comic, which is essentially what this board has been doing for a week now. Not only do you ensure the integrity of the slab, you ensure the integrity of the grade itself. This would take a little more time, but to be honest this is the bare minimum of what a grader should be doing now considering how much value they are adding (or subtracting) from a book. If they did this, I could care less how easy the case is to open.