ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Vince G]

Excuse my ignorance here.  I haven't submitted anything to CGC in the past five years so I'm sure things have changed, but didn't they do a check and possibly regrade a book when it came in for reholdering?  I distinctly recall having conversations with other collectors on the topic of reholdering and some were always hesitant about sending certain books in for reholdering fearing they'd risk receiving lower grades.

Have CGC practices changed?  Or is it true that a reholder never initiated a check on the book in the case?

Thanks, guys.

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:15 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't disagree with what you said.... but it isn't what I said.... 

I don't know that cgc was defrauded if they ok'd the reholder, as far "multiple crimes you mentioned" they all happened after CGC okd the slab. They were used to defraud on ebay and buyers, but not with CGC specifically anymore. In court CGC wouldn't be able to testify to any of that is what I mean.

So how can CGC bring criminal prosecution for any of it? That was what I was saying, maybe a lawsuit, but other than the grading fee's cgc is out, they weren't defrauded in too many other ways...

Compared to EBAY who will pass, and the customers, that might do class action once the list of slabs cgc provides is listed, and then there is CGC who is out grading fees. I could see there is a lot of "attempt to fraud" but was looking for clarification is all  

I'm not a lawyer but technically speaking, I believe CRIMINAL charges are brought by the state, not the victim.  A cooperating victim is usually necessary though to have a successful prosecution.  In this case, criminal fraud worthy of prosecution seems to have been committed.  CGC's cooperation in that prosecution, whether a "criminal" victim or not, would seem to be integral to a successful finding of guilt.  So at the end of the day, it really is up to them to "pursue accountability to the fullest extent of the law".  It's true that a criminal investigation could reveal some aspects of CGC's processes or decision-making that could cause embarrassment, or yes even civil litigation.  CGC, working with its attorneys, is best positioned to evaluate that.  But if this individual is not held to account in a very serious and public way, its simply inviting a flood of copycat scammers to attack and undermine their service.  It's a tough situation for CGC... but this latter aspect strikes me as a more perilous route.  CGC, and the market for graded comics, very likely will survive this scandal.  But how many more will both be able to absorb??

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:38 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I was thinking about this this morning. For CGC to prove damages (or whatever) - wouldn't they need to have substantial proof of this one person willfully switching books? Like, they'd have to have proof of him purchasing a lower grade book, never leaving his custody, and then proof of him selling the book in a swapped out slab - and selling to someone of authority who could confirm the chain of events leading up to the sale?

I mean, they can't arrest a drug dealer based on someone *seeing* them dealing drugs, right? The act of dealing drugs needs to be witnessed by an authority who has the power to arrest and seize the drugs and create a body of evidence for a future case. I don't know how CGC can do this, or get an official agency to devote time to it?

Exactly what my opinion was, that the smoking gun doesn't fall in cgc court specifically, but would prove them culpable.

It could be they have more info, but if they're not victims in all circumstances, then prosecution (if any) would fall short.

It's a small point but worth noting the reality 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:47 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I'm not a lawyer but technically speaking, I believe CRIMINAL charges are brought by the state, not the victim.  A cooperating victim is usually necessary though to have a successful prosecution.  In this case, criminal fraud worthy of prosecution seems to have been committed.  CGC's cooperation in that prosecution, whether a "criminal" victim or not, would seem to be integral to a successful finding of guilt.  So at the end of the day, it really is up to them to "pursue accountability to the fullest extent of the law".  It's true that a criminal investigation could reveal some aspects of CGC's processes or decision-making that could cause embarrassment, or yes even civil litigation.  CGC, working with its attorneys, is best positioned to evaluate that.  But if this individual is not held to account in a very serious and public way, its simply inviting a flood of copycat scammers to attack and undermine their service.  It's a tough situation for CGC... but this latter aspect strikes me as a more perilous route.  CGC, and the market for graded comics, very likely will survive this scandal.  But how many more will both be able to absorb??

Correct. Which goes back to why I never doubted legal authority being involved in someway, as that is the only logical way anything to the full extent of the law will happen.

The degree and what level of law enforcement will probably be left up to the, as you said, state and or local and get escalated from there.

Long ways out I'm thinking 🤔

[BlancoBros]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:47 PM, paqart said:

Imagine the so far unknown cost to CGC on this. Someone buys an IH 181 with a missing page for $10k. CGC buys it from him for $10k. The comic is worth maybe $1k. That's a dead loss of $9k for CGC, and then it gets multiplied by the number of comics involved, minus the few sellers who decide to keep the comics. They might be able to recover from the scammer, but it will cost hefty legal fees to get there. It might not be worth it.

In the end, the victim that loses the most in this scenario is CGC, not any given collector.

This is not an empty gesture at all.

Insurance. 

This is why most businesses have it. Insurance will probably pay out for all or most of this. Then the insurance company will go after this person and their assets and try to collect what they can. Also, CGC most likely has a fund to deal with losses/mix-ups, etc. Granted, this is huge.


On a separate note (hear me out):
When CGC starts gets these tampered books back, they should all get a pedigree label, " Mark Jeweler Fooler" 

1) it is cgc way of acknowledging they are not infallible, things happen and they took care if it.
2) The book's complete history is retained, including it's once tainted background.
3) On the resale side of things, qualified/restored books sell for less than their counterparts and can be a harder, slower sale. It could help elevate their resell value and speed up the sale of the item since it is now "unique". 
4) Sure, CGC may refund customers the difference in price between a regular and a qualified book, but now the customer is stuck with a qualified book. If you are dropping 10k on a book, chances are you were probably not looking to add a qualified book to your collection. Still leaving the owner unhappy. Hopefully CGC will offer a few different options, including a full buyback if the customer so chooses.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:37 AM, sd2416 said:

You can have multiple accounts on ebay.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/identity-policies/multiple-accounts-policy?id=4232#:~:text=What are the guidelines%3F,-Allowed&text=Users may have multiple accounts,have more than one account.&text=Registering new accounts or using,limits or other policy consequences.

I have two accounts.  I run an account for me and another for my parents.

I became tired of watching them donate thousands of dollars in clothing, jewelry, and handbags that they did not want any longer.   I donated my time one day at the organization they gave it to and saw all the workers looting the "good stuff" to sell online. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Buzzetta

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:20 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

This will get lost in the shuffle, but the sellers "multiple crimes" had nothing to do with cgc and more with ebay and those customers, so I didn't see where CGC has any legal right to hang him on most of the "charges".

Even if they tried, they'd only be one party that would need to work with others involved. I don't see CGC being able to bring some of the "prosecution" because most of the "crime" had nothing to do with "CGC specifically"'

anyway it is why I asked, moving on

The perp committed what's known as fraudulent misrepresentation by sending in swapped books made to appear as legit. He essentially made CGC an unwilling accomplice in his crime by fraudulently misrepresenting the swapped books to them for reholdering.  It's a federal criminal offense punishable by max $10K and/or 5 years in jail... Per offense.

[Imperare]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:04 AM, wiparker824 said:

“This Guarantee does not apply to Collectibles that have been removed from a CGC or CSG holder, or if the CGC or CSG holder containing a Collectible has been damaged, unsealed, tampered with, or altered. The determination as to whether this has occurred shall be at the sole reasonable discretion of Guarantor.

Some would say the function of a CGC slab is to assist in the facilitation of a smoother transaction between aftermarket collectors.

The above quoted statement essentially necessitates the impossible task of CGC’s participation in every aftermarket transaction that involves one of their slabs. 

[agamoto]

The most important part, and the part I keep frigging harping about, is that NO charges will see the light of day until those who were victimized by the perp pick up the friggin phone and call the FBI. It is they who have jurisdiction in any interstate criminal enterprise like this. It is NOT for local or state authorities to deal with unless the perp and all his victims reside in Florida. It's all fine and good that CGC will self-investigate, but doing so may obstruct the investigation into the criminal side of the matter. The investigation that can only be done by El Federales. 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:13 AM, agamoto said:

The most important part, and the part I keep frigging harping about, is that NO charges will see the light of day until those who were victimized by the perp pick up the friggin phone and call the FBI. It is they who have jurisdiction in any interstate criminal enterprise like this. It is NOT for local or state authorities to deal with unless the perp and all his victims reside in Florida. It's all fine and good that CGC will self-investigate, but doing so may obstruct the investigation into the criminal side of the matter. The investigation that can only be done by El Federales. 

I am waiting on cgc to contact me as I live in the same state as our fraudster, 

[BrashL]

I think relying on making an example of this guy misses the point. Prosecuting him isn’t going to dissuade anyone from doing this again or we would have become a crime free society a few hundred years ago. The way to prevent this from happing again is fixing CGC. 

[badback83]

One more day of lockdown for me, c'mon Friday, don't fail me now!

[Mr. Zipper]

There's a lot of speculation about legal process... civil vs. criminal... how the process will play out etc., etc. The reality is this:

If CGC uses their corporate resources to come after the perpetrator civilly, he won't stand a chance. It will cost him tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) in legal fees before it ever got to court. All this stuff about discovery, etc etc is just blather. Unless the defendant is wealthy, he won't have the resources to take it that far. He'll have to settle.

If CGC uses their private investigator to gather the evidence and it is turned over to authorities for criminal prosecution, the results will likely be the same... some sort of plea / settlement.

I take great comfort knowing that the turd that did this had a lousy Christmas and probably hasn't slept in weeks. Even if he doesn't spend a day in jail, his life has been turned upside down and the next few years will be a nightmare of uncertainty and financial ruin.

[shadroch]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:24 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

There's a lot of speculation about legal process... civil vs. criminal... how the process will play out etc., etc. The reality is this:

If CGC uses their corporate resources to come after the perpetrator civilly, he won't stand a chance. It will cost him tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) in legal fees before it ever got to court. All this stuff about discovery, etc etc is just blather. Unless the defendant is wealthy, he won't have the resources to take it that far. He'll have to settle.

If CGC uses their private investigator to gather the evidence and it is turned over to authorities for criminal prosecution, the results will likely be the same... some sort of plea / settlement.

I take great comfort knowing that the turd that did this had a lousy Christmas and probably hasn't slept in weeks. Even if he doesn't spend a day in jail, his life has been turned upside down and the next few years will be a nightmare of uncertainty and financial ruin.

I picture him sitting on a beach in the Caymans, reading your post while sipping champagne.  I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect this turd will never see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a jail cell.  

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:15 AM, Mdesimone said:

I am waiting on cgc to contact me as I live in the same state as our fraudster, 

You could contact your local BCI or FBI field office, give them the details of the situation and tell them you're one of many buyers defrauded around the country. Give them CGC's email address. I'm sure they'd love to hear from them. 

[Mr. Zipper]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:29 AM, shadroch said:

I picture him sitting on a beach in the Caymans, reading your post while sipping champagne.  I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect this turd will never see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a jail cell.  

Nah. That only happens in James Bond movies.  Most criminals are greedy losers who aren't that smart, blow all the money and live week to week. There is no Caribbean escape plan. He's crapping his pants in a dumpy apartment in Queens. 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:31 AM, agamoto said:

You could contact your local BCI or FBI field office, give them the details of the situation and tell them you're one of many buyers defrauded around the country. Give them CGC's email address. I'm sure they'd love to hear from them. 

I work in law enforcement this is going nowhere unless a major corporation with major investors make their phone calls 

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:32 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

Nah. That only happens in James Bond movies.  Most criminals are greedy losers who aren't that smart, blow all the money and live week to week. There is no Caribbean escape plan. He's crapping his pants in a dumpy apartment in Queens. 

This scam involves six figures easily. It’s comforting to think this is just some guy in a basement but for all we know this is a sophisticated team that’s got a nice little war chest/escape fund. 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:16 AM, BrashL said:

I think relying on making an example of this guy misses the point. Prosecuting him isn’t going to dissuade anyone from doing this again or we would have become a crime free society a few hundred years ago. The way to prevent this from happing again is fixing CGC. 

It's not one vs the other... both need to happen.  And a very public prosecution will dissuade many.  The recent crime wave the country has experienced is largely due to perpetrators NOT being prosecuted... so crime festers cause it's easy to get away with it.

Humans being humans, no fixes will prevent scammers in the entirety.  And crime will never be eliminated.  But the risk, from where it is today, can be substantially reduced by publicly holding people to account.  

A combination of defensive and offensive strategies is superior to simply a defensive one. 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:35 AM, BrashL said:

This scam involves six figures easily. It’s comforting to think this is just some guy in a basement but for all we know this is a sophisticated team that’s got a nice little war chest/escape fund. 

Not at the rent prices in forest hills he was probably just staying above water