ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[CJ Design]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:33 PM, grendelbo said:

I miss @etanick. 

I'm with you...his grading breakdowns taught me ton's. Plus I loved his rants.

[HighGrade]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:03 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Maybe... But you certainly don't know that.  I mean...how would ya ?

However, in this case, he had CGC do it for him.

Guy was brilliant.

You underestimate the power of us OCD CGC collectors😁, if someone had pulled off a perfect swap without "any" sign of tampering, you better believe some collector would have found the swapped book by some tiny mark or some mismatch in records, there would also be signs of early attempts that look almost perfect but still has signs of tampering. I really don't think anyone has done a successfully resealed without evidence of that. Ive seen the other companies complete fake card holders and there is always something, So no it was actually flaws in the process there as well that caused the worst issues. As far as outside scams, collectors need to always be aware when big money is involved scum will rise, graded or not graded, do the homework, study everything, even be aware of the chance for fake holders with complete fake books, it's not out of the realm of possibilities just with comics being 3 dimensional and tiny noticeable flaws, it's a little harder.

We are lucky in that scammers are never satisfied with one or two, or low value items, if they did or could swap with no tampering signs, you best believe they would go for the gusto not happy with hundreds, they want thousands and that's how you would find that mismatch perfect swap as actually happened here, and it was a perfect seal sadly.

[maz25]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:56 PM, thehumantorch said:

Take it easy Rob.  This is at best a few hundred books or at worst a few thousand.  CGC knows who this guy is and they'll track down the books he submitted and make it right and address the issues he exposed.  Could there be other people pulling this scam?  Maybe but let's not panic until we have proof.

I have a lot of slabs and I'm not worried.  CGC has graded a lot of books and relatively this is a pimple on a moose.  

"This is at best a few hundred books or at worst a few thousand"

Books, as in comic book issues, not necessarily copies, correct?

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 4:32 AM, BlancoBros said:

This is one possible issue i can see with this. Cgc is in florida. Temperatures are high. Now imagine those submissions being sent back are sitting is the back of a usps/ups/fedex trailer for an extended period of time. Or someone in texas, their package is sitting on their mailbox or on their lawn all day?

There are videos of people baking bread in their mailboxes...

Chances are that most books would be unaffected, but if there is a slight possibly that a few of them discolor, it would be a problem. The heat resistance of that substance would have to withhold up to a certain temperature.

That's interesting... I wonder if cases have ever just popped open in hot climates?

[thehumantorch]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:31 PM, maz25 said:

"This is at best a few hundred books or at worst a few thousand"

Books, as in comic book issues, not necessarily copies, correct?

Yes, total number of books involved.  Hope it isn't 2000 Hulk 181s  .  And who knows, we can only speculate on how many books are involved and we may never know just how many books are involved.  I do believe that any widespread practice like this would be spotted by anal, eagle eyed collectors much like the Ewart scandal.  

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:44 AM, trademarkcomics said:

Hear me out.... embed the microchips into the comics themselves.

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 8:00 AM, Changer said:

Ok, I checked my hulk 181 cert and looked through worthpoint, I think Im safe, also it was in graded march 2019 

but brings up a question, when is the earliest suspected example when he started scam/reholdering of any book ?

 I know CGC will eventually make that list some day....  

Also, how many people are swapping their green label Hulks into blue label holders today, at home? It's not as if it's a rare book that hardly anybody owns.

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:22 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Am I the only one getting very tired of youtube opinions ?

To be fair, random YouTubers who talk about comic books are the prophets and soothsayers of the modern age.

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:45 PM, thehumantorch said:

Yes, total number of books involved.  Hope it isn't 2000 Hulk 181s  .  

I wonder what percentage of #181's had the MVS clipped by zit-faced 13-year-olds 50 years ago?

I also wonder how quickly those books will all be subsumed into blue label slabs now that the know-how is out there?

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:42 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Davengers and 9.9Newsstand are one thing.  All those others who took that info from them and ran with it are another.

Now everyone seems to have a video about it.

Literally every comic book YouTuber has had their say on this now, most just regurgitating the initial news. Many of them only know half the story too, and miss the larger implications of the scandal.

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:03 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Maybe... But you certainly don't know that.  I mean...how would ya ?

However, in this case, he had CGC do it for him.

Guy was brilliant.

Cuckolding reholdering, essentially.

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:33 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Cuckolding reholdering, essentially.

[Ares]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:47 PM, WolverineX said:

no more reholders

If it need a reholder it gets a regrade.

cheapest and easiest

[AbsoluteCarnage]

Happy New years to all and for those thinking that ppl don't look or pay attention........ maybe read the last 200 + pages. The reason this was uncovered was from collectors. Good job you all. This is a pretty darn good community .

[Lightning55]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:02 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I wonder what percentage of #181's had the MVS clipped by zit-faced 13-year-olds 50 years ago?

I also wonder how quickly those books will all be subsumed into blue label slabs now that the know-how is out there?

It's not as easy as it sounds, and may require very deep pockets.

Keep in mind that you are going to need 2 CGC copies. Let's say you don't have either, but you want to get a blue 9.4 and a green 9.0 to swap in for it. Besides the crack and reseal challenge, you'll have to pony up about $16k for the components. And take your chances that you are not found out.

If you want to start higher up, a green 9.2 into a blue 9.6 case, that will cost you $23k. And if going for big money, no whammies, you need to start out with a $56k 9.8 blue. Then find something green that could pass for a 9.8, which sure won't be easy. At least another 10 grand for that, totaling $66k+.

So now, armed with your sharpened screwdriver in one hand and your trusty heat gun in the other, you stare down at $66k worth of comics and you're gonna risk the crack and reseal. Hope you had some practice. 

Yeah, tons of people every day will be doing this. No.

And the lower the grades, to make it more affordable to do it, the reward drops exponentially. Low grade green CGC copies really aren't a lot less than their blue counterparts. Not enough to incur the risk.

[wiparker824]

On 12/31/2023 at 7:33 PM, grendelbo said:

I miss @etanick. 

I thought I was meticulous and generally good at self-grading… until I stumbled across his videos probably a decade ago now. Genuinely learned a lot from his YT. Don’t see channels like that anymore. Every channel is just MCU leaked so and so is playing the next villain in Doctor Strange 6, buy this random book now! now! now!

[wiparker824]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

It's not as easy as it sounds, and may require very deep pockets.

Keep in mind that you are going to need 2 CGC copies. Let's say you don't have either, but you want to get a blue 9.4 and a green 9.0 to swap in for it. Besides the crack and reseal challenge, you'll have to pony up about $16k for the components. And take your chances that you are not found out.

If you want to start higher up, a green 9.2 into a blue 9.6 case, that will cost you $23k. And if going for big money, no whammies, you need to start out with a $56k 9.8 blue. Then find something green that could pass for a 9.8, which sure won't be easy. At least another 10 grand for that, totaling $66k+.

So now, armed with your sharpened screwdriver in one hand and your trusty heat gun in the other, you stare down at $66k worth of comics and you're gonna risk the crack and reseal. Hope you had some practice. 

Yeah, tons of people every day will be doing this. No.

And the lower the grades, to make it more affordable to do it, the reward drops exponentially. Low grade green CGC copies really aren't a lot less than their blue counterparts. Not enough to incur the risk.

Well said. And just to add it’s not just the risk of 66k in your example if you bungle it. It’s also the risk of being caught and prosecuted. I think a lot of people are skipping that part of this. Even if a YT video drops showing it can easily be done with 0 evidence of tampering (which hasn’t happened) it’s still not something many people want to risk legal consequences for. And I don’t think it’s a low risk either. If someone came to me with this plan they thought was a genius get rich scam I’d advise them not to because beyond being morally reprehensible they are likely going to get caught. I know when I spend that kind of money in a book I look at all the past sales of that cert, heritage, eBay, etc. I’ve never been looking for differences really but mainly for bidding history so I can see sort of the landscape of how it played out previously. I don’t think I’m alone in doing that sort of research on high dollar books. Others will do it, and eventually they’ll find you out. Especially in the day of CGC imaging everything. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 5:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

It's not as easy as it sounds, and may require very deep pockets.

Keep in mind that you are going to need 2 CGC copies. Let's say you don't have either, but you want to get a blue 9.4 and a green 9.0 to swap in for it. Besides the crack and reseal challenge, you'll have to pony up about $16k for the components. And take your chances that you are not found out.

If you want to start higher up, a green 9.2 into a blue 9.6 case, that will cost you $23k. And if going for big money, no whammies, you need to start out with a $56k 9.8 blue. Then find something green that could pass for a 9.8, which sure won't be easy. At least another 10 grand for that, totaling $66k+.

So now, armed with your sharpened screwdriver in one hand and your trusty heat gun in the other, you stare down at $66k worth of comics and you're gonna risk the crack and reseal. Hope you had some practice. 

Yeah, tons of people every day will be doing this. No.

And the lower the grades, to make it more affordable to do it, the reward drops exponentially. Low grade green CGC copies really aren't a lot less than their blue counterparts. Not enough to incur the risk.

You only need one blue label CGC copy, and it would only need to be mid-grade to make some decent coinage. The non-MVS #181 can be raw, and therefore much cheaper than a qualified graded copy.

Presumably you will have practised opening low value CGC cases until you're very good at it. There's still good $$ to be made even on a mid-grade switcheroo.

I'm sure there are plenty of miscreants at the very least contemplating it right now.

[migmtl76]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:54 PM, CJ Design said:

I'm with you...his grading breakdowns taught me ton's. Plus I loved his rants.

Eta Nick sure knew when to sell at the peak and bail out

[migmtl76]

There are a few eBay sellers that always have Hulk 181s, ASM 300s and other big keys for sale like on an almost weekly basis. I wonder what they are really doing.