ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:09 PM, comicwiz said:

The transition points between briva3, zaneglor and corner142:

briva3 - 12/19/2023 - 9/25/2022 (778 records)
zaneglor - 8/28/2022 - 7/6/2014 (706 records)
corner142 - 3/2/2014 - 1/29/2011 (197 records)

So your numbers are suspected/confirmed listing, or do you have a possible number of books involved? 

[comicwiz]

Information withheld.

Edited February 15 by comicwiz

[jas1vans]

Is the only way to look up those past f-bay sales through subscription sites? (Asking for someone less tech savvy than the surviving WWII Vets.)

I'd be curious to see how many ASM 192, 361, MSH 15, MS5, SW1 books zaneglor sold.

I agree with those who think this is the tip of the iceberg.

[William-James88]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:34 AM, Iconic1s said:

Is it also true that all the “victims” would need to find each other and sue together?  I think that is how a class action works, OR there is enough in it to get a big law firm interested, set up a registry where people can join in, etc.  Again, I’m not an expert on class action lawsuits but I don’t think either of these are likely scenarios.

Either people get together and visit a law office about this or a law firm gets wind of this and seeks to add plaintifs.

But either way, the damages aren't high enough or obvious enough for this to be a worthwhile endeavor.

[Bo1983]

Crazy that the 2nd appearance of Wolverine has 10 thousands more copies on census then his first appearance!

Edited January 2 by Bo1983

[William-James88]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:11 AM, Kripsys99 said:

Whether or not it would actually hold water, I think the argument for a class action would go something like this:

CGC, through recklessness and/or carelessness in its reholdering process, encapsulated fraudulent books  (ie: lower grade books than were specified on the labels) - facilitating the sale of those books to the unsuspecting general public, and causing a loss of consumer faith in the CGC brand. That avoidable loss of faith in the CGC brand - possible only due to CGC's recklessness and/or carelessness - has devalued all CGC encapsulated books, and undercut the very service which CGC customers paid CGC for to begin with (ie: independent verification and grading of CGC encapsulated books). Therefore, everyone who has ever paid for CGC's services should be eligible for recompense.

Yes, that is exactly how it would go. 

It being a collectible market that succumbs to trends, I don't see anything a law office thats big enough to take on Blackstone would find worthwhile/interesting.

The reason why the "damages" are minimal is because the comic industry has a universal grading standard (overstreet) which can still be used to assess value in a market. And thus your CGC'd comic doesn't inherently lose value since you could still sell it on it's own merrit if faith in CGC proves to quantifiably plummet (sell the book, not the slab).

 

[shadroch]

CGC has slabbed well over ten million books.  A dollar a book, with a 30% cut, would seem like an attractive proposition for a law firm.

[MasterChief]

  

On 12/29/2023 at 3:49 AM, lostboys said:

Has CGC ever stated the slabs were tamper proof?

On 12/29/2023 at 12:25 PM, MGsimba77 said:

There's no such thing as a tamper proof slab.

On 12/29/2023 at 4:04 AM, wiparker824 said:

So no they don’t guarantee tamper proof

On 12/30/2023 at 7:38 PM, Lightning55 said:

They don't warrant the case to be tamper proof, just tamper evident.

On 12/30/2023 at 7:53 PM, drotto said:

Agree, the cases are designed to be tamper evident

CGC has used “tamper-evident holder,” “tamper-proof holder,” and “tamper evident hard plastic case” in adverts and articles to promote their product, service, and brand down through the years.

Here’s how the phraseology is used...

[Bo1983]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:34 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Yes. They should at least send Comicwiz a Hulk #181 for his efforts. MVS included, preferably.

Comicwiz is a smart man and would decline 181 for the first appearance in 180

[pdags]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:35 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Is the first recorded swap from green to blue in 2019?

I think this sell is older than 2022, but I don't have access to find the exact sale date or the original purchase... but if you look at the two books, you can tell they aren't the same.

 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:08 PM, shadroch said:

CGC has slabbed well over ten million books.  A dollar a book, with a 30% cut, would seem like an attractive proposition for a law firm.

...and yet, nothing will happen. Nothing. This is a pipe dream.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:40 PM, pdags said:

I think this sell is older than 2022, but I don't have access to find the exact sale date or the original purchase... but if you look at the two books, you can tell they aren't the same.

 

Definitely another switcheroo.  

[namisgr]

So my question: what is the motivation to bother with reholdering in this instance?  The copy that is either below an 8.5 grade, suffering damage deserving of a green label, or both, carries an 8.5 blue label when switched into the top case.  Is it because there's is perceptible damage to the top outer case after the switcheroo, which the fraud launders by the reholdering process?  Or is there another reason to reholder that I'm leaving out?

If the reason to go ahead with the reholdering after the switcheroo is to hide perceptible damage to the outer case, then these switchouts leave a stigma that they've occurred, in the absence of any reholdering. 

Edited January 2 by namisgr

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:53 PM, namisgr said:

So my question: what is the motivation to bother with reholdering in this instance?  The copy that is either below an 8.5 grade, suffering damage deserving of a green label, or both, carries an 8.5 blue label when switched into the top case.  Is it because there's is perceptible damage to the top outer case after the switcheroo, which the fraud launders by the reholdering process?  Or is there another reason to reholder that I'm leaving out?

It gives the scammer the legitimacy of the CGC census, since CGC has been rescanning covers after reholdering. So if you look it up, it is this book pictured. It covers any damage that may have occurred to the slab during the switch. Which is essential, because many collectors are very particular about cases, and may question if the book is legitimate if they notice even a hint of damage. 

 

That is the prevailing theory at this point.

Edited January 2 by drotto

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/2/2024 at 3:58 PM, drotto said:

It gives the scammer the legitimacy of the CGC census, since CGC has been rescanning covers after reholdering. So if you look it up, it is this book pictured. It covers any damage that may have occurred to the slab during the switch. Which is essential, because many collectors are very particular about cases, and may question if the book is legitimate if they notice even a hint of damage. 

 

That is the prevailing theory at this point.

If CGC just started scanning last year? And the scam or "sales" go back to 2011 or something, he probably did or didn't send to cgc for reholder "then?"

Like before cgc started scanning, are the certs the same in swapped books, or just swapped out books in slabs that no one noticed until now? Or is it the pics in gpaanalysis that is the proof?

@drotto

Edited January 2 by ADAMANTIUM

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

I scanned through the last 10+ pages or so and didn't see a link to a post at the Comic Book Collecting group on Reddit about the CGC scandal: 

140 comments so far. Not sure what that means long term but awareness of the ongoing situation definitely seems to be growing outside of this forum. I don't see anything written about the scandal at Bleeding Cool, CBR, or The Beat. There is an article at ComicBook.com:

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/cgc-comics-issues-statement-on-holder-tampering-controversy/

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:01 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

If CGC just started scanning last year? And the scam or "sales" go back to 2011 or something, he probably did or didn't send to cgc for reholder "then?"

Like before cgc started scanning, are the certs the same in swapped books, or just swapped out books in slabs that no one noticed until now? Or is it the pics in gpaanalysis that is the proof?

@drotto

Honestly no idea.  The only proof we have of swapped books, that I have seen here, is from the Gen 3 cases.  We also know that the label was switchable in earlier generations of case, and that scam left basically no apparent case damage.  I suspect his methods have evolved as the cases have changed, and presented him with new obstacles. So maybe the new case does show tampering more easily so he was forced into the reholder method? Maybe he just discovered that getting label notations for things like MJI lead to big profits, and flawlessly faking the label was difficult? Yes, the pictures are a new thing in the registry, but the registry and showing up as valid there has been a thing since basically day one of CGC.

[Iconic1s]

I use Duckduckgo to search and here are the top four stories when searching “cgc reholder scandal.”  Different perspectives for sure, and IMO some not so common outlets starting to pick up the story... I had never heard of the first two.

https://www.pfadvice.com/2024/01/01/the-cgc-reholder-scam-hundreds-of-fraudulent-comics-sold-what-to-do-if-youre-affected/

https://shoppersvila.com/review/cgc-comics-reholder-scam-exposed/

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/cgc-comics-issues-statement-on-holder-tampering-controversy/

https://bleedingfool.com/blogs/fraud-by-any-other-name-the-cgc-comic-grading-scandal/

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:12 PM, Mr. Spider-Woman said:

140 comments so far. Not sure what that means long term but awareness of the ongoing situation definitely seems to be growing outside of this forum.

Lol. No, it's not. 140 comments when CGC slabs thousands of books a week?

This story is a non-starter to the collecting public at-large. They won't even know about it.

[drotto]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:53 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Lol. No, it's not. 140 comments when CGC slabs thousands of books a week?

This story is a non-starter to the collecting public at-large. They won't even know about it.

True.

 

The biggest damage to the comic collecting world comes from two groups.  Investors, who are just buying books as a commodity,  and a way to diversify their portfolio. Many people may say good riddance to this group, but it could have a large negative affect on perceived value if they get out.

 

The second and definitely more important group is new collectors, and like it or not graded comics provide a lower skill avenue to start buying and trading. Will these people be permanently scared off?

 

The old farts like us on this forum, who mostly do this for live of the medium, will weather this storm. It will eventually pass.