ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:09 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Maybe they will make a custom label for it 🤔

Maybe something with Dr Doom holding a heat gun:

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:10 AM, LordRahl said:

You clearly have never worked with the federal government. What you are suggesting would be an absolute train wreck. Your books would be in limbo for years with no compensation. No one is going to do that. CGC would be foolish to try that as they would get skewered by all of the owners of these books. 

This is absolutely correct. When people send their books to CGC, they will be turned over to the FBI, who will crack and review them. If they’re not doctored, they’ll be returned to CGC. If they have been doctored, the FBI will keep them as evidence and CGC will pay the owner - presumably/hopefully the replacement cost of the book the person thought they bought.

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:02 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

At this point if CGC cares about the collecting community, they need to release the name. 

Instead of just looking up certs, it would be helpful for those who might have purchased directly from this person.

Also, it would reassure the community that this was only one person and not several. And not a CGC employee.

Yes, I know, lawyers might be advising against this. But those attorneys care about CGC first and the rest of us second, if at all.

If boardies know, they should step up. 

 

Do you care about some random stranger more than you do about yourself? If you could do something that is detrimental to you but beneficial for said random stranger, would you? 

I don't know what kind of fairy tale world you all live in but posts like this continue to amaze me. Unrealistic is putting it mildly.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:02 PM, Matt1982 said:

350 is not the total number of suspect books, but it’s the only number of books CGC will report publicly. CGC won’t report books where the perp swapped then sold books without re-holdering, because they weren’t a part of that and can’t possibly know what books were cracked/swapped. In that case the wrongful conduct happened outside their chain of custody. Where the books were re-holdered, CGC was used (or it’s employed participated - we don’t know) as part of the scheme, so those are the only books CGC will report.

I would expect the FBI will prosecute, and if the perp pleads guilty they will make him/her/them report the entirety of the scheme, and that’s when we’ll get an expanded list.

Agreed, and this is why we need any books the scammer consigned to Heritage, ComicLink, ComicConnect, MyComicShop, etc added to the list.  Throw in eBay as well.  Unless someone can demonstrate that the scammer was not able to swap books without creating a noticeable holder defect, these books are just as suspect as the reholdered ones.  CGC, and now ComicLink, are to be commended for their commentary and keeping us updated.  But the transparency on the potential for a simple holder swap is still lacking. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:02 AM, Matt1982 said:

350 is not the total number of suspect books, but it’s the only number of books CGC will report publicly. CGC won’t report books where the perp swapped then sold books without re-holdering, because they weren’t a part of that and can’t possibly know what books were cracked/swapped. In that case the wrongful conduct happened outside their chain of custody. Where the books were re-holdered, CGC was used (or it’s employed participated - we don’t know) as part of the scheme, so those are the only books CGC will report.

I would expect the FBI will prosecute, and if the perp pleads guilty they will make him/her/them report the entirety of the scheme, and that’s when we’ll get an expanded list.

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm excited to see the crazy bidding on the first "Counterfeit CGC Slab" that pops up on Ebay. Can you imagine a Counterfeit Acetate Ultimate Fallout #4?

Like the counterfeit TMNT #1s  

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:19 AM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Like the counterfeit TMNT #1s  

Right! I was thinking of those, Cerebus and the CFD #1s.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:19 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

Agreed, someone has to keep a master list.  Seems like CGC is best positioned to do that.  The selling venues should share all scammer transactions that went through their sites.  They should all know who the scammer is at this point.

[drotto]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:19 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

Agreed, this is all the books attached to one account, or maybe one name, if they could determine the individual was using multiple accounts.  It does not include people that may be associated with this individual, or just others running the same scam, and CGC has no reason to investigate at this point.

 

Also CGC wants all the tainted books gone, even if proven legitimate. Like you said they arw toxic. They do need to look at all these books, I suspect many of them are actually legitimate, or to some a disappointing amount may be.  The fraud, I suspect are concentrated on those where he submitted an extreme amount of books. I would not be surprised if all the SA, and other lower number books are fine.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:11 AM, pdags said:

I'm not saying CGC will do anything illegal like that...  I'm simply saying, shipping your book back in for a re-holdering is the loss of your best evidence.   Without knowing CGC is working with law enforcement and this is what law enforcement wants, I would feel incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

This is just one of the many reasons why those victimized should be submitting a report to the FBI to investigate this matter and not just reaching out to CGC. This is potentially a 7 figure interstate wire fraud case affecting HUNDREDS of consumers. One of the things the FBI instructs people NOT to do in these sorts of crimes is self-investigate. Why? Because it actually can lead to evidence getting tainted, hidden or destroyed. The suspect, who is certainly more than aware of what's going on, has been deleting ads, disabling accounts, privating feedback for old and new accounts, Comiclink has said they are removing archived listings. CGC has offered some level of transparency with this list, but the list doesn't include all the perp's submissions... Each one of those books on the list has 4 or 5 other books that got sent in with it that for whatever reason they didn't choose to list. Fine and dandy that CGC is investigating itself, however it's not their job to gather evidence against the perp, nor do they have the jurisdiction and power to gather evidence everywhere it needs to be gathered. While I don't want to believe there's an inside component to all this, the number of 9.8's this clown was getting handed out and his QUITE "statistically significant" cornering of the market on the ASM194 9.8's, etc. tells me that a proper law enforcement body should be investigating this matter both within and without and I want to hear this from CGC. A vague statement is not enough and telling victims to only contact them sure looks to me like a damage control measure and not an attempt to bring this dude (or dudes) to criminal justice. 

[Darth Krayt]

Current state of CGC 😂😂

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:19 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

Maybe I'm missing something here but how would CGC or anyone else for that matter know what this list is? I believe you can look up past ebay sales for only a few months. Or is there some way I don't know of to see what an ebay account has sold for years in the past? Other than a law enforcement agency subpoenaing ebay's records that is.  

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:41 AM, LordRahl said:

Maybe I'm missing something here but how would CGC or anyone else for that matter know what this list is? I believe you can look up past ebay sales for only a few months. Or is there some way I don't know of to see what an ebay account has sold for years in the past? Other than a law enforcement agency subpoenaing ebay's records that is.  

I think @comicwiz has been selectively tracking prior sales on eBay of certain books under 3 eBay accounts going back 15 years. There are a number of online services like the wayback machine and others that let you see cached webpages long after their original host had removed them. That’s where many of the scans in this thread were mined from. 

[Iconic1s]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:02 AM, Matt1982 said:

350 is not the total number of suspect books, but it’s the only number of books CGC will report publicly. CGC won’t report books where the perp swapped then sold books without re-holdering, because they weren’t a part of that and can’t possibly know what books were cracked/swapped. In that case the wrongful conduct happened outside their chain of custody. Where the books were re-holdered, CGC was used (or it’s employed participated - we don’t know) as part of the scheme, so those are the only books CGC will report.

I would expect the FBI will prosecute, and if the perp pleads guilty they will make him/her/them report the entirety of the scheme, and that’s when we’ll get an expanded list.

Agree!  In my mind the only thing that really restores confidence in the CGC brand is the prosecution of those that did this.  That’s when we’ll see the strength of the CGC “guaranty.”  CGC needs to make an example out of these people using the full power of their lawyers and the legal process to do so.

I was not around for the trimming scandal but learned of it reading this thread… I also read all the links about it that people posted here.  I saw a quote from the then head of CGC telling the guy to “leave the hobby or be prosecuted” or something like that.  I honestly think that was pretty lame then, and it would definitely be a wildly wrong attitude now.  These people need to be named in legal documents and have their livelihood stripped from them.

At this point I don’t even think the slab needs a redesign… CGC just needs better practices for examining reholders to find tampering.  Otherwise it is fine for anyone not a criminal, and after these scammers are made an example of anyone of that mind will think twice before trying to get one over on CGC again.

Edited January 4 by Iconic1s
Exact quote was “leave the hobby or risk a lawsuit from CGC”

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:41 AM, LordRahl said:

Maybe I'm missing something here but how would CGC or anyone else for that matter know what this list is? I believe you can look up past ebay sales for only a few months. Or is there some way I don't know of to see what an ebay account has sold for years in the past? Other than a law enforcement agency subpoenaing ebay's records that is.  

CGC has the list of all books associated with that user, and has given that information to the FBI. The FBI is extremely likely already working with CLink, CConnect, Ebay, Heritage, etc. (via cooperation and/or subpoena) to track those books to their final destination. Then if the FBI wants to do so, they'll contact the current or most-recent owners and track the books down. People should calm down and trust that if you got a hold of one of these books, you'll hear from someone. The FBI will do their job, and others will very likely cooperate. Then all the details will become public when there's an indictment, information or other public action taken by the FBI. The agents at the FBI are good at their jobs and work hard to limit the victims of a scheme like this one, so cooperation by the above vendors really helps them do their job quickly.

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:47 AM, Iconic1s said:

Agree!  In my mind the only thing that really restores confidence in the CGC brand is the prosecution of those that did this.  That’s when we’ll see the strength of the CGC “guaranty.”  CGC needs to make an example out of these people using the full power of their lawyers and the legal process to do so.

I was not around for the trimming scandal but learned of it reading this thread… I also read all the links about it that people posted here.  I saw a quote from the then head of CGC telling the guy to “leave the hobby or be prosecuted” or something like that.  I honestly think that was pretty lame then, and it would definitely be a wildly wrong attitude now.  These people need to be named in legal documents and have their livelihood stripped from them.

At this point I don’t even think the slab needs a redesign… CGC just needs better practices for examining reholders to find tampering.  Otherwise it is fine for anyone not a criminal, and after these scammers are made an example of anyone of that mind will think twice before trying to get one over on CGC again.

I agree but the problem with this is that our legal system takes time and until this person is being prosecuted, I would expect CGC to stay silent on details that have to do with the prosecution (which would be almost everything at this point). That could take months if not years.

[comeaux]

The FBI will not be involved with this in any manner whatsoever 

[MyNameIsLegion]

Anyone who thinks the FBI has or will be investigating anything anytime soon and will be forthcoming and transparent are wildly optimistic about how the world actually works. There’s 200 billion dollars in fraudulent PPE loans to track down first, the numbers and people affected in the CGC fraud don’t begin to hit their radar.  Taxpayers come before discretionary spending on luxury items like comic books. You’d have to add 2 or 3 zeroes to this to even get a return phone call. 

[pdags]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:10 PM, LordRahl said:

You clearly have never worked with the federal government.

Actually, I did work for government (not federal) and in my past job I worked with the FBI on multiple occasions.  They were always very responsive and only *recommended* we didn't tell people we were working with them.  To be fair, I worked in a completely different industry which had ties to national infrastructure and wouldn't expect as much responsiveness from them as in the comic book industry.

 

 

 

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:41 AM, LordRahl said:

Maybe I'm missing something here but how would CGC or anyone else for that matter know what this list is? I believe you can look up past ebay sales for only a few months. Or is there some way I don't know of to see what an ebay account has sold for years in the past? Other than a law enforcement agency subpoenaing ebay's records that is.  

There are other sources out there, like worthpoint.com, where I, and others, many hundreds of ads from the seller, across multiple accounts, going back to 2006. Kinda thought that was common knowledge in this thread already, but I don't begrudge you if you haven't looked at all 260 pages!