ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MatterEaterLad]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:52 PM, agamoto said:

Seems like quite a different situation to me. There can be no dispute about who the driver was, the work done to not confuse similarly named people in their investigation seems perfectly normal. In this instance, the name of the person(s) involved can be masked, forged, stolen as their crimes are faceless. 

Does anyone really believe that whoever did this stole someone else's identity? Did they use someone else's name, email, credit cards, mailing address, and eBay account? 

Suspects are named all the time, for any number of circumstances, even online fraud. They just use the word "allegedly" which allows for a lot of leeway.

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:48 PM, Lightning55 said:

Not an accountant, I see.

Quite funny that you are criticizing someone for these terms when you don't have them correct either. I think they call that being hypocritical. 

From your earlier post, you are defining net profit as what you receive after auction fees. This would actually be "net proceeds". What your net profit is would be the difference between what the book sold for, and all expenses involved (auction fee, shipping, original purchase price, etc.). 

Well wait a minute what if all you had into the book was auction fees, would that not be net profit?

 

[Ccccccccccccc]

I registered so I could ignore some people in this thread 🙏

[BrashL]

On 1/4/2024 at 5:02 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Well I didnt want to assume but I assumed you would devalue your own books by around 50% right?

That's the vibe I am getting from some of your posts and couple others that these books are heading down towards being even more worthless daily right?

So would 50% now and by next week what maybe 75% then to 0%?

This is such a dumb take. First of all, this scam devalues CGC, not comics in general. The actual metric you should be asking about is the CGC premium over raw which is what would actually tell you something. Second, I personally value the CGC guarantee a lot less the. I did a few weeks ago but ultimately the market will decide. I’ll be buying raw in the meantime. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:30 PM, BrashL said:

This is such a dumb take. First of all, this scam devalues CGC, not comics in general. The actual metric you should be asking about is the CGC premium over raw which is what would actually tell you something. Second, I personally value the CGC guarantee a lot less the. I did a few weeks ago but ultimately the market will decide. I’ll be buying raw in the meantime. 

No, actually its just how some people hear think.

In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books.

Well I think many posts here are in fact dumb takes so right back at yea.

Edited January 5 by NewWorldOrder

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:19 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Well wait a minute what if all you had into the book was auction fees, would that not be net profit?

 

Technically, yes. If it was raw, no grading cost. If you got it for free, found it on the ground, or stole it, you would have zero basis. If you walked it over to the auction house, no shipping 

In reality, I wonder if even a single copy ever auctioned had those attributes. Very profitable. The only way you could make more would be to take a lower grade comic and slip it, surreptitiously, into a higher graded case.

Oh...wait...

[shadroch]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:47 PM, gmasstermcd said:

50% of market value is not that low. It's what decent comic shops offer. Anyone trying to pitch a collection that would go to a shop maybe they get offered 60-65% on already graded books but 50% isn't a horrible offer to start

 

MCs will take any slab on consignment and pay you 90% of the sale price.

[maz25]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:41 PM, Matt1982 said:

Here's what I base my statement on that the FBI will be (likely already is) involved - from CGC's statement: In addition to the initiatives described above and as previously reported, we have also retained a leading private investigative service and outside counsel to conduct a comprehensive review of this incident and our processes, and to help ensure that this individual is held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

Admittedly, the rest of what I've written is speculation based on my experience because performing investigations like the one that CGC says it has undertaken, and cooperating with law enforcement like the FBI, is what I do for a living. So I should be clear that I haven't been given any inside information, but I'm writing what I would expect to happen based on my experience doing this.

My statement that CGC will turn the books over to the FBI is because the FBI will need to preserve the chain of custody since the books are evidence, and if CGC cracks the books then it could taint the chain of custody and render the books unhelpful in a case against whoever did this. It's also based on my experience that all the online marketing of these books, and the use of the USPS and other carriers to deliver books that are sold, makes it a federal crime. And in my experience and opinion it's absolutely a federal crime. This person didn't "exploit a loophole". They knowingly and intentionally used false pretenses to turn less-valuable books into more-valuable books, and then marketed them as those more-valuable books - which in reality they were not. This is all wire fraud, and a lot of it. Each book is its own crime, and it's a serious matter.

Have you not followed the "reported stories" on the FBI on a federal level over the last 6-7 years?  Maybe local gets involved. no way federal does anything.  This gets buried.

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:45 PM, shadroch said:

MCs will take any slab on consignment and pay you 90% of the sale price.

Or even 92%, if the value is high enough.

[JC25427N]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:45 PM, shadroch said:

MCs will take any slab on consignment and pay you 90% of the sale price.

I can confirm, MCs give the best deals, but you have to find a good one. I used to give all of my slabs to MC Hammer to sell for me back in the day

Spoiler

 

[BrashL]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:34 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

No, actually its just how some people hear think.

In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books.

Well I think many posts here are in fact dumb takes so right back at yea.

I mean you really don’t seem to understand anything about market pricing or basic economics. This thing where you’re going to buy things at 50% discounts, what are you even talking about? I can only think you’re trying to make some point about liquidity with the “selling your stock” example but that doesn’t make a ton of sense in this context given how many buyers each sale has.  Maybe take a break from this thread for your own sake.  

[drotto]

Ok, just a question, if it has been covered before, sorry I missed it, after there was an explosion of like 200 posts in 2 hours. My head hurts.

 

How was the 350 list generated?  Is this standard grading submissions from the suspected scammer, or just reholder submissions? Or a combination of the two? All his submissions? The sequential certificate numbers would indicate initial grading submissions, while the one off numbers could be either, since reholders keep the original number. If it is all submissions from a high volume submitter, even the 350 number seems low.  I am just a collector and have submitted 50 or so books over the years. 

[maz25]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:33 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I am offering you a lifeline to get out before the values of all comic books go to zero!!!!!!

50 or so ASM 194's, ASM 252's and ASM 300's has now showed the hobby what power they have.

Please take my money!  I am begging you!

ok forrest

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:00 PM, BrashL said:

I mean you really don’t seem to understand anything about market pricing or basic economics. This thing where you’re going to buy things at 50% discounts, what are you even talking about? I can only think you’re trying to make some point about liquidity with the “selling your stock” example but that doesn’t make a ton of sense in this context given how many buyers each sale has.  Maybe take a break from this thread for your own sake.  

I understand you are young, and in your 20's so I will try again to explain.

"In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books. "

Some people here are acting like the sky is falling and CGC comics will now suffer grave market declines, so 50c on the dollar would seem like fair price then right to buy their books at right? I mean if now they believe CGC comics are now becoming worthless I am offering anyone here a lifeline I am baiting you and others to maybe wake the  up and let your common sense brain come alive. They are contradicting their own posts.  Again no one is saying this isnt a big deal, but its not the apocalypse by any sketch of the means.

I am saying you and others are being very illogical if you think this current scam will have any impact on the comic book marketplace what so ever.  Listen you and others are free to have opinions, and I also have the right to say those opinions are non-sense and not based in reality.

End of the day CGC has zero competition, so where you going to go.....no where.

Have a good night.

 

[maz25]

is nWo in on "it"?

[Lightning55]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:08 AM, drotto said:

Ok, just a question, if it has been covered before, sorry I missed it, after there was an explosion of like 200 posts in 2 hours. My head hurts.

 

How was the 350 list generated?  Is this standard grading submissions from the suspected scammer, or just reholder submissions? Or a combination of the two? All his submissions? The sequential certificate numbers would indicate initial grading submissions, while the one off numbers could be either, since reholders keep the original number. If it is all submissions from a high volume submitter, even the 350 number seems low.

You are completely caught up, because to my knowledge, there was never any explanation offered as to the specific methodology used to compile the list. That part is still behind the curtain. 

[BrashL]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:25 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I understand you are young, and in your 20's so I will try again to explain.

"In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books. "

Some people here are acting like the sky is falling and CGC comics will now suffer grave market declines, so 50c on the dollar would seem like fair price then right to buy their books at right? I mean if now they believe CGC comics are now becoming worthless I am offering anyone here a lifeline I am baiting you and others to maybe wake the  up and let your common sense brain come alive. They are contradicting their own posts.  Again no one is saying this isnt a big deal, but its not the apocalypse by any sketch of the means.

I am saying you and others are being very illogical if you think this current scam will have any impact on the comic book marketplace what so ever.  Listen you and others are free to have opinions, and I also have the right to say those opinions are non-sense and not based in reality.

End of the day CGC has zero competition, so where you going to go.....no where.

Have a good night.

 

Yea you’re kinda proving my point. Sleep on it and maybe it will make sense in the morning. 
 

Also raw is the competition and always has been but that point seems to have sailed over your head. 
 

And man if you’re older than me (I wish I was still in my 20’s) and still have this precarious a grasp on simple concepts. Yikes. 

[drotto]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:25 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

I understand you are young, and in your 20's so I will try again to explain.

"In their minds CGC market values are down now, but only till they want to sell their own books. "

Some people here are acting like the sky is falling and CGC comics will now suffer grave market declines, so 50c on the dollar would seem like fair price then right to buy their books at right? I mean if now they believe CGC comics are now becoming worthless I am offering anyone here a lifeline I am baiting you and others to maybe wake the  up and let your common sense brain come alive. They are contradicting their own posts.  Again no one is saying this isnt a big deal, but its not the apocalypse by any sketch of the means.

I am saying you and others are being very illogical if you think this current scam will have any impact on the comic book marketplace what so ever.  Listen you and others are free to have opinions, and I also have the right to say those opinions are non-sense and not based in reality.

End of the day CGC has zero competition, so where you going to go.....no where.

Have a good night.

 

I agree 100%, when you finally get around to saying it.  

The likely realities of the current CGC and comic book market

1. There may be a short term hit on values of comic books related to this. Especially with the seemingly highly manipulated books.  But, the market will correct and recover at some point.

2. Grading in collectables is a modern day reality.  It is in comics, coins, video game, cards, money, stamps, even Funco Pops.  It is not going away since the collecting comminutes as a whole has deemed the service valuable.  Like it or not.

3. CGC graded books, may get a short term hit in value, but will continue to sell for more then raw comics. There are too many dealers that pin their lively hood on selling slabbed books, and there are too many auction houses that depend on it. This is especially true for high value key books. While most books are still raw overall, the majority of high value books have been slabbed. How many raw AF15's do you see any more.  Raw X-Men #1.  You get my point.  They are out there, but getting ever harder to find. 

4.  No matter how much people complain about the slabs, raise your hand if you think there is a new mass cracking of books going on, because of this scandal. I just do not see it happening.  Most people will not crack their books out, if they were not the collectors that were doing this before the scandal. When those books are eventually sold, they will therefor still be in slabs. 

5. This is unlikely to be the end of CGC. Weakened in the short term. In need of getting consumer confidence back, but this will pass. There is also no strong competitor waiting to pounce. 

6. Most comic collectors are either not aware this is going on or only somewhat aware. Those of us posting here, obsessing over the details, and acting like the sky is falling, are the minority.  Now, it is great we are here, because those same obsessive people are the ones that actual protect the hobby. 

 

If this upsets some people, I am sorry. I am trying to be a realist with all of this. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:04 PM, drotto said:

I agree 100%, when you finally get around to saying it.  

 

6. Most comic collectors are either not aware this is going on or only somewhat aware. Those of us posting here, obsessing over the details, and acting like the sky is falling, are the minority.  Now, it is great we are here, because those same obsessive people are the ones that actual protect the hobby. 

 

If this upsets some people, I am sorry. I am trying to be a realist with all of this. 

Total agreement with everything you said, but #6 for me is the hard facts #1 reason, and why even a short-term I dont see much of an impact.

MCU and DCEU failures

New Comic books being terrible

No new big movies in 2024

Those will have more of an impact possibly than this scammer could ever have with what is known so far.

 

Edited January 5 by NewWorldOrder

[ExNihilo]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:04 PM, drotto said:

6. Most comic collectors are either not aware this is going on or only somewhat aware. Those of us posting here, obsessing over the details, and acting like the sky is falling, are the minority.

I've been on holiday since this whole thing exploded and there's no way I'm reading nearly 300 pages to get caught up on it.  I get the gist of it though...someone found a way to open cases, swapped to lesser books, sent for reholder, and rinsed and repeated.  How this was all figured out is lost on me.  As are any other deeper points.  At this point...

...i'm too afraid to ask.