ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[mrd160]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:17 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I think the upcoming auctions from the larger platforms like Heritage, ComicLink, ComicConnect, etc will give us an indication of what effect there has been, if any, on customer confidence.  The results will also likely inform CGC's plans for further disclosure and changes.

My prediction….no/very little effect. The addicts need the drugs….lol

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:26 PM, comicjel said:

Is there really a good reason that someone with a 9.8 Universal "normal" label book would send it to CGC just to get a custom label put on it?

The whole custom label option should have just been exclusively when a book was being originally graded period!

 

 

There are people who like those labels, and they had their book slabbed before the labels existed at all. Labels came out in 2016 I believe someone stated in here and even then labels are limited time deals, they come and go. Of course it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I’d guess most that opt to reholder a book for a custom label are in this group and it is a “good reason” to them.

[360flip]

FWIW the list has been 351 since Jan 3. I've cut and pasted several times into excel. There has just been some books that have been striked out.

[Panda2]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:37 PM, 360flip said:

FWIW the list has been 351 since Jan 3. I've cut and pasted several times into excel. There has just been some books that have been striked out.

Ugh. So if they slip new books onto the list we have to go back and recheck our slabs over and over again. @CGC Mike I think it was comicwiz that asked that new entries be flagged in some way - please yes!!!!

[shadroch]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:31 PM, mrd160 said:

My prediction….no/very little effect. The addicts need the drugs….lol

I don't think it will be an overnight thing. 

[Nick Furious]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:17 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I think the upcoming auctions from the larger platforms like Heritage, ComicLink, ComicConnect, etc will give us an indication of what effect there has been, if any, on customer confidence.  The results will also likely inform CGC's plans for further disclosure and changes.

I expect to see maybe 15%-20% impact on certain books in the near-term.  The usual suspects, Hulk 181, ASM 300, etc.  I suspect that many of those books are bought at auction based on expectations of higher future value, rather than buy-and-keep collectors.  This could certainly put some hesitation into those expectations.  

Edited January 9 by Nick Furious

[atomised]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:17 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I think the upcoming auctions from the larger platforms like Heritage, ComicLink, ComicConnect, etc will give us an indication of what effect there has been, if any, on customer confidence.  The results will also likely inform CGC's plans for further disclosure and changes.

I think that is a correlation that will be hard to make.  In the HA Sig, the Hulk 9.2 is already at a record breaking price if it sold today at 360k (w/BP).  Prices overall will be all over the map on these numerous lots.  I would hope CGC is not making business decisions that impact customer security based on ebbs and flows of major auction house prices, and I don't think they are.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Wait new books have been added to the list? 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:08 PM, shadroch said:

Every day that passes reduces the public's confidence in them.  If they think a one-and-done statement is going to restore confidence in their product, they are sadly mistaken.

Most of the general public doesn't now or is too busy to take the time to be truly informed of what is currently going on (same with current events & politics).

I talked to numerous comic friends who are a mix of raw and CGC collectors, most are just too busy to really care is the vibe I get.

You were around back in the Ewert scandal I assuming right?

That didn't effect anything long-term, and that was way more scandalous than this.

I am not downplaying what this scumbag(s) did, and I glad it has come into the light of day, but it really won't have much of an impact on the overall comic market.  I am with you though that I am curious how the big Heritage books do, but from what I am hearing there is more excitement than trepidation.  I mean even on my small selling level, my eBay sales to start the year were well above what I thought, so we shall see. 

In 2024 the Federal Reserve interest rates and Kevin Feige/James Gunn will have will more of an impact on the market prices than this.

Same people that love buying CGC will mostly continue, and the same people that are anti-CGC/slab culture will keep buying raw.

Rinse and repeat till we are old and have to sell it all anyway because we all die with nothing and our bank accounts go back to zero.

 

Edited January 9 by NewWorldOrder

[paqart]

Many people here keep saying that what Ewert did is worse than the reslabbing fiend in the present case. Why? Ewert was trimming comics to get a better grade, but at least it was up to CGC to spot it and downgrade accordingly. The Reslabber  isn't doing that. By sneaking his comics into an existing slab, he evades scrutiny that Ewert's method doesn't escape.

My opinion: the Reslabber is worse than Ewert because it is overt fraud, as opposed to restoration that the submitter hoped would pass muster as unrestored. CGC is more culpable with the Ewert case than the Reslabber, because they received the comics as normal submissions and should have been checking for retouching. With the Reslabber, effort went into deceiving CGC, and that reduces their culpability.

Bottom line, both are bad, but as a competition, more of the responsibility for what happened rests on the Reslabber's shoulders than on Ewert's.

[Nick Furious]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:04 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Most of the general public doesn't now or is too busy to take the time to be truly informed of what is currently going on (same with current events & politics).

I talked to numerous comic friends who are a mix of raw and CGC collectors, most are just too busy to really care is the vibe I get.

You were around back in the Ewert scandal I assuming right?

That didn't effect anything long-term, and that was way more scandalous than this.

I am not downplaying what this scumbag(s) did, and I glad it has come into the light of day, but it really won't have much of an impact on the overall comic market.  I am with you though that I am curious how the big Heritage books do, but from what I am hearing there is more excitement than trepidation.  I mean even on my small selling level, my eBay sales to start the year were well above what I thought, so we shall see. 

In 2024 the Federal Reserve interest rates and Kevin Feige/James Gunn will have will more of an impact on the market prices than this.

Same people that love buying CGC will mostly continue, and the same people that are anti-CGC/slab culture will keep buying raw.

Rinse and repeat till we are old and have to sell it all anyway because we all die with nothing and our bank accounts go back to zero.

 

I think it will have some impact, but it will be compartmentalized.  Dude was caught peeing in the pool, but it seems to be mostly contained to a few areas.  Folks who are partial to hanging out in those areas (higher grade Hulk 181, ASM 300 9.8, Mark Jeweler 9.8's, etc) are probably mostly aware of it.  It won't chase everyone out of the pool, but it will make some areas suspect for a while.  

Edited January 9 by Nick Furious

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:20 PM, Nick Furious said:

I think it will have some impact, but it will be compartmentalized.  Dude was caught peeing in the pool, but it seems to be mostly contained to a few areas.  Folks who are partial to hanging out in those areas (higher grade Hulk 181, ASM 300 9.8, Mark Jeweler 9.8's, etc) are probably mostly aware of it.  It won't chase everyone out of the pool, but it will make some areas suspect for a while.  

Sounds logical to me.

[comicjel]

On 1/9/2024 at 5:20 PM, Nick Furious said:

I think it will have some impact, but it will be compartmentalized.  Dude was caught peeing in the pool, but it seems to be mostly contained to a few areas.  Folks who are partial to hanging out in those areas (higher grade Hulk 181, ASM 300 9.8, Mark Jeweler 9.8's, etc) are probably mostly aware of it.  It won't chase everyone out of the pool, but it will make some areas suspect for a while.  

Yes, unless we find out he has been peeing in all areas of the pool for longer than we thought!

[BrashL]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:04 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

You were around back in the Ewert scandal I assuming right?

That didn't effect anything long-term, and that was way more scandalous than this.

 

I know you keep going back to this out of wishful thinking but it's a useless analogy. That was 20 years ago. CGC wasn't what it is today, the comic market wasn't what it is today, social media wasn't what it is today. I could go on. You keep using this silly straw man like it's some brilliant thought.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:23 PM, comicjel said:

Yes, unless we find out he has been peeing in all areas of the pool for longer than we thought!

I mean that's anything in life.

[Nick Furious]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:19 PM, paqart said:

Many people here keep saying that what Ewert did is worse than the reslabbing fiend in the present case. Why? Ewert was trimming comics to get a better grade, but at least it was up to CGC to spot it and downgrade accordingly. The Reslabber  isn't doing that. By sneaking his comics into an existing slab, he evades scrutiny that Ewert's method doesn't escape.

My opinion: the Reslabber is worse than Ewert because it is overt fraud, as opposed to restoration that the submitter hoped would pass muster as unrestored. CGC is more culpable with the Ewert case than the Reslabber, because they received the comics as normal submissions and should have been checking for retouching. With the Reslabber, effort went into deceiving CGC, and that reduces their culpability.

Bottom line, both are bad, but as a competition, more of the responsibility for what happened rests on the Reslabber's shoulders than on Ewert's.

Yeah, I think the micro-trimming thing was small potatoes compared to this.  Getting past the trained eyes required expertise and craftsmanship.  This was about getting past the entry level guy.  Presumably anyone could do it. 

[GDN]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:00 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Wait new books have been added to the list? 

I don't think so.  Comicwiz thought there had but then corrected himself later on.  He had missed it in his search by not including the hyphen in the search.

[BrashL]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:27 PM, Nick Furious said:

Yeah, I think the micro-trimming thing was small potatoes compared to this.  Getting past the trained eyes required expertise and craftsmanship.  This was about getting past the entry level guy.  Presumably anyone could do it. 

That's a good point, so far as I know no one to this day knows exactly how Ewert got the results he did. That's rocket science compared to what this group was up to.

[comicjel]

On 1/9/2024 at 5:25 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I mean that's anything in life.

Agreed, but I am concerned that this guy may have been doing this longer with higher value books being swapped out with restored books, and then gravitated to the less noticeable modern books that he could churn more.

The higher value books on CGCs list means he was likely getting those reholdered for "some" reason. 

 

[EastEnd1]

On 1/9/2024 at 5:19 PM, paqart said:

Many people here keep saying that what Ewert did is worse than the reslabbing fiend in the present case. Why? Ewert was trimming comics to get a better grade, but at least it was up to CGC to spot it and downgrade accordingly. The Reslabber  isn't doing that. By sneaking his comics into an existing slab, he evades scrutiny that Ewert's method doesn't escape.

My opinion: the Reslabber is worse than Ewert because it is overt fraud, as opposed to restoration that the submitter hoped would pass muster as unrestored. CGC is more culpable with the Ewert case than the Reslabber, because they received the comics as normal submissions and should have been checking for retouching. With the Reslabber, effort went into deceiving CGC, and that reduces their culpability.

Bottom line, both are bad, but as a competition, more of the responsibility for what happened rests on the Reslabber's shoulders than on Ewert's.

There are two HUGE differences between Ewert and this one.  The first is the one you mention, the requirement for Ewert to go through the gatekeeper.  The second is the exponential growth of social media in the intervening years.  From my recollection, the Ewert controversy was largely centered around the CGC board and if you weren't on this board, or well connected with the dealer circuit, there was a good chance you wouldn't have heard about it.  With social media today, word spreads like wildfire... even the casual collector can easily stumble across this one.