ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[360flip]

The compensation seems fair, somewhere in the middle. Best case scenario for the comic owner would be compensation for what they paid. Worst case scenario would be compensation for FMV of actual swapped book which would be regraded. 

Edited January 13 by 360flip

[HighGrade]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:52 PM, BrashL said:

I’ve been pretty critical of CGC on this thread but slowly they’re providing some answers and I think they’ll get there eventually. It’s obvious we’re going to get a new holder out of this which is long overdue and Immaculate Comics has shown a much better holder is possible. It will suck to have to reholder books to hold their value but hopefully they offer some specials to make things right.  
 

Props to the community for getting us this far. CGC is gonna take a hit in the short term but the hobby will be better in the long run. 

It's good to be critical, and everything will be better because of this happening, weird but true. But I wouldn't worry about values or reholdering your books, if the current Heritage Auction and other sales are any indication, hobby is great, the only thing hurting books is still the speculation and over priced books from the influx of speculators. And there is still no proof you can swap books without signs of tampering, the holder was not the downfall, it was the reholder system which CGC has said and corrected and will continue to make better and more secure, all grading companies go through these things from time to time, it's the actions after that make all the difference.

I still sell cards in OLD holders without the new added security and more secure design for the same, sometimes more! I buy them too, but I do my homework, I scrutinize them more, I don't chances if I think something is sketchy. I and most others will still buy books in current holders even if or when any added security features are added.  One thing is for sure we have a SOLID hobby, I mean this Heritage Auction is a certain sign we have a very healthy hobby even in this downturn we have been in for a while.  No worries

[pdags]

On 1/13/2024 at 1:13 AM, HighGrade said:

the holder was not the downfall, it was the reholder system

We already went through the optimistic thinking phase...  A poorly designed holder allowed someone to commit fraud *for years*.  Tampering was sufficiently good enough to trick CGC *for years*.  CGC has no slab on the market that isn't, how should we say it, weak on security.  How does this get fixed?  It can't.

I try not to be too critical of CGC on their forums, but weak slab security, newton rings, and lax business processes may not have affected Heritage Auction, but it's made a major impact on my behavior going forward.  I can only speculate that I'm not a lone.

 

Edited January 13 by pdags

[comicwiz]

I'm trying my best not to be critical, but reading through the conditions of consumers impacted by this as set out in The CGC Guarantee is rather unsettling. It is amazing to me that CGC is requiring the cooperation of those impacted to surrender "impacted" books on the list they created, but have used the most verbose and technically complex language possible to lay out what in my estimation is a lopsided avantage to the Guarantor, who may/may not cover or compensate those impacted by this. As somone who handles appraisals in a wide-range of situations, including in post-loss scenarios, I am both baffled and completely underwhelmed by what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing happening behind the scenes, and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

However, what I think the community most needs to know (and believe me when I say there is a lot I am restraining myself from sharing) is that it is not a good look right now that CGC is removing certificaiton numbers, which in essence may serve as a critical component of establishing the very evidence proving the tampering took place. I have already begun seeing this happen with the Project Green to Blue books, where the certifications numbers for the green (qualified) are no longer available for look-up on the Verify CGC Certification. This is one of the reason why I've been heistant in sharing other books NOT on the impacted list, which are on the dataset that I first used to find the books I did. 

Finally, under the section of the CGC Guarantee page titled Exclusive Venue for Disputes and Governing Law, under the section EVERYWHERE ELSE - I want to put it out there that for those impacted (and you don't have to be directly impacted by this to qualify for these options I am providing, because we are all indirectly impacted by this for too many reasons to list here at the moment), the community should be aware that as a consumer, you have every right to file a report with the FTC, the Office of the Inspector General, and with your State Attorney General’s Office Consumer Protection Division, as well as obtaining legal assistance.

I didn't ask for anything in return for the work I did, but I did expect better from CGC than what I'm seeing, in the manner this is all being handled. I'm very disappoiinted with what I've seen develop thus far.

Edited January 13 by comicwiz

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:28 AM, pdags said:

We already went through the optimistic thinking phase...  A poorly designed holder allowed someone to commit fraud *for years*.  Tampering was sufficiently good enough to trick CGC *for years*.  CGC has no slab on the market that isn't, how should we say it, weak on security.  How does this get fixed?  It can't.

I try not to be too critical of CGC on their forums, but weak slab security, newton rings, and lax business processes may not have affected Heritage Auction, but it's made a major impact on my behavior going forward.  I can only speculate that I'm not a lone.

 

This went on for 5 pages and felt like 20 to some, but is just me responding in hope that the story is straight. No one came to back me up so it may be lost forever.

I've sent cracked cases in for reholder. Really cracked.

The case didn't have to look perfect for the book to retain the same grade. Didn't look perfect at all.

Which is another lousy excuse for these videos to exist.

The person who was supposed to inspect the BOOK at CGC simply didn't do their job.

That is why it will be hard for CGC to prove they've fixed anything, because other than firing the reholder guy, there is nothing they can point to and say "that fixes it!"

How will some know CGC fixed it, if they are convoluted on the problem after $350+ pages.

It's not worth my time, I'm in the same boat with CGC slabs as you and I care too.

 @comicwiz since you've got patience, did I cover it or am I needing a reality check?

I apologize for taking everyones time. the CGC case didn't need an oven and to look perfect to get by CGC, 

That's kind of the whole point! Sigh 😞😔

 

Edited January 13 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

I guess as mentioned it is a small pittance to be offered the value of the swapped book, and that Lord willing they get enough to replace what they had.

I await the new holder and the crawl back to normalcy, with reholders and etc.

I thought maybe I understood but big picture, it is the masses that are affected. I'm just one guy trying to "get it" 

Which doesn't matter as long as I'm pretty 😍 and nice?

 

Spoiler

 

Edited January 13 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:12 AM, comicwiz said:

I'm trying my best not to be critical, but reading through the conditions of consumers impacted by this as set out in The CGC Guarantee is rather unsettling. It is amazing to me that CGC is requiring the cooperation of those impacted to surrender "impacted" books on the list they created, but have used the most verbose and technically complex language possible to lay out what in my estimation is a lopsided avantage to the Guarantor, who may/may not cover or compensate those impacted by this. As somone who handles appraisals in a wide-range of situations, including in post-loss scenarios, I am both baffled and completely underwhelmed by what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing happening behind the scenes, and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

However, what I think the community most needs to know (and believe me when I say there is a lot I am restraining myself from sharing) is that it is not a good look right now that CGC is removing certificaiton numbers, which in essence may serve as a critical component of establishing the very evidence proving the tampering took place. I have already begun seeing this happen with the Project Green to Blue books, where the certifications numbers for the green (qualified) are no longer available for look-up on the Verify CGC Certification. This is one of the reason why I've been heistant in sharing other books NOT on the impacted list, which are on the dataset that I first used to find the books I did. 

Finally, under the section of the CGC Guarantee page titled Exclusive Venue for Disputes and Governing Law, under the section EVERYWHERE ELSE - I want to put it out there that for those impacted (and you don't have to be directly impacted by this to qualify for these options I am providing, because we are all indirectly impacted by this for too many reasons to list here at the moment), the community should be aware that as a consumer, you have every right to file a report with the FTC, the Office of the Inspector General, and with your State Attorney General’s Office Consumer Protection Division, as well as obtaining legal assistance.

I didn't ask for anything in return for the work I did, but I did expect better from CGC than what I'm seeing, in the manner this is all being handled. I'm very disappoiinted with what I've seen develop thus far.

Thanks that sums it up nicely. I wonder if not directly impacted, with legal council I'd get all 700 slabs redone for free  

I see the "tamper" evidence litigation speech, so I'll take one last moment to post I "get it now", just didn't make sense to me that tampering with the case had anything to do with the CGC guy not inspecting the book. For the sake of everyone else, I'm stubborn too sometimes  

[brute_nm]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:12 AM, comicwiz said:

I'm trying my best not to be critical, but reading through the conditions of consumers impacted by this as set out in The CGC Guarantee is rather unsettling. It is amazing to me that CGC is requiring the cooperation of those impacted to surrender "impacted" books on the list they created, but have used the most verbose and technically complex language possible to lay out what in my estimation is a lopsided avantage to the Guarantor, who may/may not cover or compensate those impacted by this. As somone who handles appraisals in a wide-range of situations, including in post-loss scenarios, I am both baffled and completely underwhelmed by what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing happening behind the scenes, and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

However, what I think the community most needs to know (and believe me when I say there is a lot I am restraining myself from sharing) is that it is not a good look right now that CGC is removing certificaiton numbers, which in essence may serve as a critical component of establishing the very evidence proving the tampering took place. I have already begun seeing this happen with the Project Green to Blue books, where the certifications numbers for the green (qualified) are no longer available for look-up on the Verify CGC Certification. This is one of the reason why I've been heistant in sharing other books NOT on the impacted list, which are on the dataset that I first used to find the books I did. 

Finally, under the section of the CGC Guarantee page titled Exclusive Venue for Disputes and Governing Law, under the section EVERYWHERE ELSE - I want to put it out there that for those impacted (and you don't have to be directly impacted by this to qualify for these options I am providing, because we are all indirectly impacted by this for too many reasons to list here at the moment), the community should be aware that as a consumer, you have every right to file a report with the FTC, the Office of the Inspector General, and with your State Attorney General’s Office Consumer Protection Division, as well as obtaining legal assistance.

I didn't ask for anything in return for the work I did, but I did expect better from CGC than what I'm seeing, in the manner this is all being handled. I'm very disappoiinted with what I've seen develop thus far.

Also keep in mind they've maintained shipping submissions every day since this broke, presumably with no additional security measures and certainly no new case design. 

I guess their plan is to disappear the affected books ASAP and forget this all happened. Remove their scarlet letter and get them back out into anonymous circulation. The only "process improvement" is firing the reholder guy, which is treating a symptom but not curing the root cause.

They can ban the scammer's account but who's to say he can't just open a new account with another family member's name/address. Heck, maybe he already did and has already submitted a fresh batch of books 

Edited January 13 by brute_nm

[EastEnd1]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:28 AM, pdags said:

We already went through the optimistic thinking phase...  A poorly designed holder allowed someone to commit fraud *for years*.  Tampering was sufficiently good enough to trick CGC *for years*.  CGC has no slab on the market that isn't, how should we say it, weak on security.  How does this get fixed?  It can't.

I try not to be too critical of CGC on their forums, but weak slab security, newton rings, and lax business processes may not have affected Heritage Auction, but it's made a major impact on my behavior going forward.  I can only speculate that I'm not a lone.

 

I'm not sure that the Heritage auction from thursday is much of an indicator.  The first day is always "the best of the best" material... rare and super high grade.  It's not good fodder for this sort of scam.  The auction today has material more in line with what the scammer used and MAY be a better indicator.  We have to also remember that Heritage represents the top of the food chain.  We may not see pricing issues with them; downstream venues are likely better indicators.  

[EastEnd1]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:12 AM, comicwiz said:

I'm trying my best not to be critical, but reading through the conditions of consumers impacted by this as set out in The CGC Guarantee is rather unsettling. It is amazing to me that CGC is requiring the cooperation of those impacted to surrender "impacted" books on the list they created, but have used the most verbose and technically complex language possible to lay out what in my estimation is a lopsided avantage to the Guarantor, who may/may not cover or compensate those impacted by this. As somone who handles appraisals in a wide-range of situations, including in post-loss scenarios, I am both baffled and completely underwhelmed by what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing happening behind the scenes, and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

However, what I think the community most needs to know (and believe me when I say there is a lot I am restraining myself from sharing) is that it is not a good look right now that CGC is removing certificaiton numbers, which in essence may serve as a critical component of establishing the very evidence proving the tampering took place. I have already begun seeing this happen with the Project Green to Blue books, where the certifications numbers for the green (qualified) are no longer available for look-up on the Verify CGC Certification. This is one of the reason why I've been heistant in sharing other books NOT on the impacted list, which are on the dataset that I first used to find the books I did. 

Finally, under the section of the CGC Guarantee page titled Exclusive Venue for Disputes and Governing Law, under the section EVERYWHERE ELSE - I want to put it out there that for those impacted (and you don't have to be directly impacted by this to qualify for these options I am providing, because we are all indirectly impacted by this for too many reasons to list here at the moment), the community should be aware that as a consumer, you have every right to file a report with the FTC, the Office of the Inspector General, and with your State Attorney General’s Office Consumer Protection Division, as well as obtaining legal assistance.

I didn't ask for anything in return for the work I did, but I did expect better from CGC than what I'm seeing, in the manner this is all being handled. I'm very disappoiinted with what I've seen develop thus far.

Where's the guarantee about tamper evident holders?

[pdags]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:15 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The person who was supposed to inspect the BOOK at CGC simply didn't do their job.

I'm not against this theory, but I can't see it as one person for a few years.  It was a department and the overall process was inadequate.  I made a post about that awhile back... how does CGC adequately differentiate between tampering and accidents.  I'm not sure they can and if they can why not share it with the community.

Edited January 13 by pdags

[BrashL]

On 1/13/2024 at 12:13 AM, HighGrade said:

And there is still no proof you can swap books without signs of tampering, the holder was not the downfall, it was the reholder system which CGC has said and corrected and will continue to make better and more secure

Here I disagree. Given everything we know, there is no way go forward with the new holder. I’ll never be convinced that multiple people haven’t perfected opening and resealing the holder given the money at stake. One guy screwing around in his free time nearly perfected it in a couple weeks. The current slabs are DOA.  I think it would be best for the hobby if reholdering them was discontinued and all of them were subject to regrading. We need to restore confidence that what’s in the plastic is legit and I don’t see any other way of doing that. I won’t be buying another comic in the old case or submitting because I think it won’t hold its value once the new ones come out, and rightly so. 

[BrashL]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:02 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I'm not sure that the Heritage auction from thursday is much of an indicator.  The first day is always "the best of the best" material... rare and super high grade.  It's not good fodder for this sort of scam.  The auction today has material more in line with what the scammer used and MAY be a better indicator.  We have to also remember that Heritage represents the top of the food chain.  We may not see pricing issues with them; downstream venues are likely better indicators.  

Correct. These were the biggest books in the hobby. They have the scrutiny of the entire community and don’t really tell us anything. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:11 AM, pdags said:

On 1/13/2024 at 8:15 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The person who was supposed to inspect the BOOK at CGC simply didn't do their job.

I'm not against this theory, but I can't see it as one person for a few years.  It was a department and the overall process was inadequate.  I made a post about that awhile back... how does CGC adequately differentiate between tampering and accidents.  I'm not sure they can.

Truly!!! I appreciate the confirmation!

Because this all sounds like a smokescreen to me. Because everyone went on and on "about the case" now cgc is latching on to use it as an excuse to stand behind their "guarantee" to get books back and remove them, everyone will then "forget."

It is kind of why I talked so much about the videos that it wasn't "the main point or concern", and I was struggling to get any point across, where it looked like I was a pariah.

My apologies

[ADAMANTIUM]

we still need a new case, don't get me wrong.

By standing behind their "guarantee with the case" cgc saves face, when it was an internal problem that needs to be addressed as well.

Ok I'm spinning again  no worries

[Iconic1s]

Been seeing a lot of people citing the Heritage auction results as an indicator that there is no reason to be concerned about the market.

Honest question here… hasn’t Heritage been known to shill bid their own auctions in the past?  I’ve read articles going back 20 years now that the guy running the place has been pulling scams on people since he was 13 years old (was in fact fined) and is currently named in ongoing litigation.  Meanwhile CGC has Heritage plastered all over their website as testimony that their product gets second to none auction results!

I mean, c’mon… does anyone really think the Heritage results on these high end books in the middle of this scandal are going to show anything other than a strong showing for CGC/Heritage/the market??

Before anyone accuses me of committing a crime by stating this, read the articles yourselves… it’s all there in black and white.  To think that no one is currently involved in making sure prices stay high on these books is just flat out denial.  Truth probably is that these books never were and still aren’t worth the amounts being recorded… and when you get right down to it some loser opening slabs with a heat gun is small potatoes compared to what has probably really been going on with the comic market.

 

[pdags]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:30 AM, Iconic1s said:

Been seeing a lot of people citing the Heritage auction results as an indicator that there is no reason to be concerned about the market.

I'm not worried about the overall market, but what indicators are there that can indicate if *CGC* is being affected by this (preferably in the long run).  Not sure we can get any indicators without CGC publishing information.

[comicwiz]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:06 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Where's the guarantee about tamper evident holders?

There are conditions which appear on the surface to encompass this incident, however there should be something either written in or amending this, for this specific situation. 

[ArcherC]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:31 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Software companies have been releasing buggy software for two decades, letting end-users troubleshoot the problems for them, where the make all the bug fixes and push an update.

It's called Agile 

Edited January 13 by ArcherC
was just catching up ... comment is a little stale and has been talked about

[comicjel]

IMO the biggest deterrent to both the reholder scam as well as the feared scam of replacing a graded comic without leaving a trace (which I still have some skepticism about) are the CGC scans of the graded books that you can review through the "verify" system.

I know that they have only been doing that for about the last 6 months, but I have heard that CGC has scans of every book that they have graded - if so, I feel CGC should start adding those archived scans for all books (start with the higher value and work down).  At the very least, you should be able to purchase them for a small fee.

I also feel that when a book is reholdered, they should still keep the original graded scan, and add the reholdered scan - again as a deterrent more than anything.

If down the road you could review the original scan of any graded book, I feel that would replace the need for a new holder - again... IMO