ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[pdags]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:52 AM, comicjel said:

are the CGC scans of the graded books that you can review through the "verify" system.

This is a step in the right direction, but it's not full proof and it's highly inconvenient if you purchase a lot of slabs or are comparing a bunch of slabs to buy.  I don't want to scan 20 different images with, possibly, only micro differences.

And if buying stuff online the quality of the online pictures may not be all that great or have different lighting, etc.

Edited January 13 by pdags

[pdags]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:12 AM, comicwiz said:

and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

Several hundred pages ago I recommended people with high dollar books consider getting legal council before sending any books back to CGC...  It wasn't taken too well then.  

[Atomic Rooster]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:30 AM, Iconic1s said:

Been seeing a lot of people citing the Heritage auction results as an indicator that there is no reason to be concerned about the market.

Honest question here… hasn’t Heritage been known to shill bid their own auctions in the past?  I’ve read articles going back 20 years now that the guy running the place has been pulling scams on people since he was 13 years old (was in fact fined) and is currently named in ongoing litigation.  Meanwhile CGC has Heritage plastered all over their website as testimony that their product gets second to none auction results!

I mean, c’mon… does anyone really think the Heritage results on these high end books in the middle of this scandal are going to show anything other than a strong showing for CGC/Heritage/the market??

Before anyone accuses me of committing a crime by stating this, read the articles yourselves… it’s all there in black and white.  To think that no one is currently involved in making sure prices stay high on these books is just flat out denial.  Truth probably is that these books never were and still aren’t worth the amounts being recorded… and when you get right down to it some loser opening slabs with a heat gun is small potatoes compared to what has probably really been going on with the comic market.

 

Per Heritage's auction terms....
22. From time to time, the Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees may place bids on lots in the Auction.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:52 AM, brute_nm said:

Also keep in mind they've maintained shipping submissions every day since this broke, presumably with no additional security measures and certainly no new case design. 

I guess their plan is to disappear the affected books ASAP and forget this all happened. Remove their scarlet letter and get them back out into anonymous circulation. 

I am SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I tells ya!

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:05 AM, pdags said:

This is a step in the right direction, but it's not full proof and it's highly inconvenient if you purchase a lot of slabs or are comparing a bunch of slabs to buy.  I don't want to scan 20 different images with, possibly, only micro differences.

And if buying stuff online the quality of the online pictures may not be all that great or have different lighting, etc.

I hear you, and I would love to see a perfect holder created one day, but think about all the graded comics that are already out there - are we going to need to get them all regraded (or reholdered) when a better case is designed?

Nothing is going to be perfect, but this scam was discovered by devoted hobbyists, basically "you guys" by comparing scans (as was Ewert scam for that matter) - if there were more scans from CGC of originally graded books, and an easy way to view them, I think that would be a huge deterrent, and it would improve the confidence in past graded comics as well as future graded comics.  

Edited January 13 by comicjel
less choppy

[brute_nm]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:25 AM, comicjel said:

I hear you, and I would love to see a perfect holder created one day, but think about all the graded comics that are already out there - are we going to need to get them all regraded (or reholdered) when a better case is designed?

Nothing is going to be perfect, but this scam was discovered by devoted "you guys" by comparing scans (as was Ewert scam for that matter) - if there were more scans from CGC of originally graded books, and an easy way to view them, I think that would be a huge deterrent, and it would improve the confidence in past graded comics as well as future graded comics.  

CGC just needs to find a way to make money off it... maybe a monthly subscription for access to scans 

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:28 AM, brute_nm said:

CGC just needs to find a way to make money off it... maybe a monthly subscription for access to scans 

At this point, sign me up!!

[Neo "The One"]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:14 AM, BrashL said:

Here I disagree. Given everything we know, there is no way go forward with the new holder. I’ll never be convinced that multiple people haven’t perfected opening and resealing the holder given the money at stake. One guy screwing around in his free time nearly perfected it in a couple weeks. The current slabs are DOA.  I think it would be best for the hobby if reholdering them was discontinued and all of them were subject to regrading. We need to restore confidence that what’s in the plastic is legit and I don’t see any other way of doing that. I won’t be buying another comic in the old case or submitting because I think it won’t hold its value once the new ones come out, and rightly so. 

CGC should re-holder and regrade for the cost of a re-holder going forward.  It's not our fault that they are lax with grading, labeling and there cases break (especially the earlier ones).  If they don't do this, they are just passing the buck and penalizing the legitimate collectors.  If they want to keep their name and reputation they need to eat the 'loss'.  I have very little confidence in CGC as a company now.  Previously it was just a bit of an annoyance.  Pay for pressing, comes back with same non-breaking color spine tick.  Books mis-labeled (I have several of these - wrong title, wrong issue number, wrong variant listed etc.) Under-graded / overtraded books.  No graders notes.  Got a signed book, who signed it?  The Census won't tell you.  They should have been documenting flaws and taking pictures from the VERY BEGINNING. They are completely inconsistent.  These are the reasons people are able to take advantage and game the system.

[grendel013]

Hello page 350.

[Pantodude]

On 1/12/2024 at 3:19 PM, Pantodude said:

347 pages!  A seemingly unstoppable force of nature! We'll see about 350 before the holiday weekend hits.   This immovable object oughta take care of it, paradox be damned! 

This...was...not...supposed...to...happen.  

[Buzzetta]

Sooooo what everyone is saying is now is the time to send my first books in since the summer of 2020 to get graded?

[Red Hook]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:59 PM, comicwiz said:

Really happy to see you and @OldGuy back here 

Thank you very much! 15 years goes by like a shot. 

[Red Hook]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:59 PM, comicwiz said:

Really happy to see you and @OldGuy back here 

Thank you, CW! 

[HighGrade]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:52 AM, comicjel said:

IMO the biggest deterrent to both the reholder scam as well as the feared scam of replacing a graded comic without leaving a trace (which I still have some skepticism about) are the CGC scans of the graded books that you can review through the "verify" system.

I know that they have only been doing that for about the last 6 months, but I have heard that CGC has scans of every book that they have graded - if so, I feel CGC should start adding those archived scans for all books (start with the higher value and work down).  At the very least, you should be able to purchase them for a small fee.

I also feel that when a book is reholdered, they should still keep the original graded scan, and add the reholdered scan - again as a deterrent more than anything.

If down the road you could review the original scan of any graded book, I feel that would replace the need for a new holder - again... IMO 

100% agree, If they have scans of all past graded books, they 100% need to have them accessible by "EVERYONE" not just people signed up, also all auction houses should have a link to said scans and info just like like Heritage has in the auction listing, This too is a huge plus for CGC, I mean heck it's a link driving potential new customers to your site, and free advertising. This will only grow CGC further and drive more people to use them for all grading. To charge to see these would make it completely useless as the service would be for those that are buyers to give them one more piece of security. In the end helps CGC graded collectibles get the highest prices, thus driving more people to grade with them, driving sales.

Everything they do to gain confidence will drive sales, you don't always need to charge for added services, as these services draw new customers, drive more sales.

Every graded collectible is imaged then these images should be available to any buyer, it only works if all can see these images, heck I would want these links everywhere leading back to my site, want to make added revenue? throw some adverts on the page with the images, I wouldn't care as long as you make them look like ads.

[agamoto]

So, 350 pages in and I just learned something new about this incident that has really disturbed me that I never heard before. 

The person who originally blew the lid off this story, 9.9 Newstand, recently chatted with the gang at The Code-X Comic Station youtube channel yesterday.

In the conversation, 9.9 talks about a 266 X-Men MJ variant which Zaneglor had up for consignment via Grailz. He talks about having a discussion in DM's with the consignor, Zaneglor via Insta at the time. 

This is a DM discussion Zaneglor and 9.9 had months before the sale of the infamous swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant.

In the ad for the 9.8 X-Men 266 MJ, Zaneglor commented that only 7 copies of such a highgrade X-Men 266 existed and 9.9 had asked him how he knows this as they aren't broken out on the census, nor on sites like GPA or GoCollect. 

According to 9.9, Zaneglor responded by saying he has been "a professional collector for 30 years who had called in favors at CGC and we decided, me and the higher-ups, that there are 7 of these books". 

(412 seconds in if the link doesn't work right)

Zaneglor may have been totally lying when he talked about collaborating with CGC "higher-ups" on the 266. However, the mere suggestion anyone working for CGC had collaborated with Zaneglor in ANY manner should be automatic grounds to disqualify the impartiality of any internal investigation. 

For the umpteenth time, law enforcement needs to get involved in this investigation, yesterday. At the very least, we deserve to hear from CGC as to whether LEO's have even been approached on this matter.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:18 PM, agamoto said:

At the very least, we deserve to hear from CGC as to whether LEO's have even been approached on this matter.

Why do you believe the public is entitled to know what CGC is doing as far as involving law enforcement?

Honest question.

[Silver Surfer]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:18 PM, agamoto said:

So, 350 pages in and I just learned something new about this incident that has really disturbed me that I never heard before. 

The person who originally blew the lid off this story, 9.9 Newstand, recently chatted with the gang at The Code-X Comic Station youtube channel yesterday.

In the conversation, 9.9 talks about a 266 X-Men MJ variant which Zaneglor had up for consignment via Grailz. He talks about having a discussion in DM's with the consignor, Zaneglor via Insta at the time. 

This is a DM discussion Zaneglor and 9.9 had months before the sale of the infamous swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant.

In the ad for the 9.8 X-Men 266 MJ, Zaneglor commented that only 7 copies of such a highgrade X-Men 266 existed and 9.9 had asked him how he knows this as they aren't broken out on the census, nor on sites like GPA or GoCollect. 

According to 9.9, Zaneglor responded by saying he has been "a professional collector for 30 years who had called in favors at CGC and we decided, me and the higher-ups, that there are 7 of these books". 

(412 seconds in if the link doesn't work right)

Zaneglor may have been totally lying when he talked about collaborating with CGC "higher-ups" on the 266. However, the mere suggestion anyone working for CGC had collaborated with Zaneglor in ANY manner should be automatic grounds to disqualify the impartiality of any internal investigation. 

For the umpteenth time, law enforcement needs to get involved in this investigation, yesterday. At the very least, we deserve to hear from CGC as to whether LEO's have even been approached on this matter.

Just skimmed through it but possibly 10-12 years this guy has been in operation, worked con’s, had a possible LCS and CGC connection and sold hundreds of thousands of books, signature series, etc. Every submission this guy has made should be flagged but I doubt they would want to go there because it would crater their business if the list was in the thousands. Instead we will probably get a clean up in isle 2 stop gap solution with the hopes that this thread fizzles out, what a mess. 

[GDN]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:18 PM, agamoto said:

So, 350 pages in and I just learned something new about this incident that has really disturbed me that I never heard before. 

The person who originally blew the lid off this story, 9.9 Newstand, recently chatted with the gang at The Code-X Comic Station youtube channel yesterday.

In the conversation, 9.9 talks about a 266 X-Men MJ variant which Zaneglor had up for consignment via Grailz. He talks about having a discussion in DM's with the consignor, Zaneglor via Insta at the time. 

This is a DM discussion Zaneglor and 9.9 had months before the sale of the infamous swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant.

In the ad for the 9.8 X-Men 266 MJ, Zaneglor commented that only 7 copies of such a highgrade X-Men 266 existed and 9.9 had asked him how he knows this as they aren't broken out on the census, nor on sites like GPA or GoCollect. 

According to 9.9, Zaneglor responded by saying he has been "a professional collector for 30 years who had called in favors at CGC and we decided, me and the higher-ups, that there are 7 of these books". 

(412 seconds in if the link doesn't work right)

Zaneglor may have been totally lying when he talked about collaborating with CGC "higher-ups" on the 266. However, the mere suggestion anyone working for CGC had collaborated with Zaneglor in ANY manner should be automatic grounds to disqualify the impartiality of any internal investigation. 

For the umpteenth time, law enforcement needs to get involved in this investigation, yesterday. At the very least, we deserve to hear from CGC as to whether LEO's have even been approached on this matter.

I assume this is a different "Comic Station"

9.9 did talk about all this way back in the beginning on one or more of the Davengers YouTube live shows.

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:34 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Why do you believe the public is entitled to know what CGC is doing as far as involving law enforcement?

Honest question.

What part of Zaneglor telling 9.9 Newsstand he has collaborated with higher ups at CGC did you not get?

Did you miss the part where the guy who sold the swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant told the guy who cracked this all open months prior that he has connections with higher ups at CGC, who have collaborated with him on determining book populations?

That's on TOP of everything else we know, the history of scams and scandals at CGC where people walked free w/o charges and what happened last year at NGC under similar circumstances.  

Now, two honest questions for you.

Do you think the public, who has spent hundreds of millions, possibly billions of dollars for the CCG mark of confidence, the mark of assurity on their cherished comics, coins, posters, cards, etc. deserve to know that a fully impartial criminal investigation is underway to ensure those responsible for scamming others are brought to justice, especially if there is even a hint of a possible co-conspirator working for the company?

Do you think the company stating they are having private investigators look over things and have hired outside legal counsel to represent them in the matter is good enough? 

[comicwiz]

Information wittheld.

Edited February 15 by comicwiz