ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[wiparker824]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:23 PM, comicwiz said:

The interesting thing I find from this data is things seemed to ramp up after 2016. That’s the same year CGC rolled out the custom labels if I recall. Of course you could reholder a book without a custom label before 2016, but this limited data we have suggests the scammer may have not ramped up that particular exploit until the custom labels rolled out.

[drotto]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:12 PM, wiparker824 said:

The interesting thing I find from this data is things seemed to ramp up after 2016. That’s the same year CGC rolled out the custom labels if I recall. Of course you could reholder a book without a custom label before 2016, but this limited data we have suggests the scammer may have not ramped up that particular exploit until the custom labels rolled out.

Also the year the new case came out.

[wiparker824]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:18 PM, agamoto said:

So, 350 pages in and I just learned something new about this incident that has really disturbed me that I never heard before. 

The person who originally blew the lid off this story, 9.9 Newstand, recently chatted with the gang at The Code-X Comic Station youtube channel yesterday.

In the conversation, 9.9 talks about a 266 X-Men MJ variant which Zaneglor had up for consignment via Grailz. He talks about having a discussion in DM's with the consignor, Zaneglor via Insta at the time. 

This is a DM discussion Zaneglor and 9.9 had months before the sale of the infamous swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant.

In the ad for the 9.8 X-Men 266 MJ, Zaneglor commented that only 7 copies of such a highgrade X-Men 266 existed and 9.9 had asked him how he knows this as they aren't broken out on the census, nor on sites like GPA or GoCollect. 

According to 9.9, Zaneglor responded by saying he has been "a professional collector for 30 years who had called in favors at CGC and we decided, me and the higher-ups, that there are 7 of these books". 

(412 seconds in if the link doesn't work right)

Zaneglor may have been totally lying when he talked about collaborating with CGC "higher-ups" on the 266. However, the mere suggestion anyone working for CGC had collaborated with Zaneglor in ANY manner should be automatic grounds to disqualify the impartiality of any internal investigation. 

For the umpteenth time, law enforcement needs to get involved in this investigation, yesterday. At the very least, we deserve to hear from CGC as to whether LEO's have even been approached on this matter.

I watched this last night and had the same reaction hearing that as you did. I know some people seem to disagree, that’s fine, but let’s put it this way. If this person was a random submitter who sent in a few books a year, yeah, it’d be hard to believe they had any sort of line of communication into CGC. If this person was working at or with a larger dealer that also ran a pressing shop for the past decade+ and that submitted a high volume of slabs on a weekly basis and was submitting books under that dealer’s account. Well, it’s not that hard to believe they’ve had some direct conversations with CGC before. Of course we don’t know if that’s 100% true or not, but it remains a possibility. That doesn’t necessarily mean even if that is the case that the conversation this person claimed happened with CGC where they announced the number of MJI they believed existed in such and such grade actuallY took place. That might have been 100% just blowing smoke. But there’s usually some truth in a lie. I don’t think it’s that much of a reach to believe this scammer or scammers might have had an open dialogue with their subs at CGC at some point. 

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:31 PM, Dr. Love said:

Have you tried reaching out to Mike Nelson about your concerns?

I did, but I got no response. Maybe I should try "Matt". 

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:14 PM, Lightning55 said:

Same notes on dozens of my books, verbatim. But not on any 9.8's, so there's that....

Funny thing, that, isn't it?

[Microchip]

Hi @CGC Mike are any of these books sitting in registry sets?

a. If so, is CGC contacting the collectors?

b. are these books going to be withdrawn by CGC from the registry sets?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

[Lightning55]

I have had about 400-500 9.8's, from Bronze, Copper, and Modern submissions. I never got notes, to my knowledge, on even a single 9.8. Maybe not even a single 9.6. I have heard of people getting notes on 9.8's. Very rarely, though.

To get a large percentage of notes on 9.8's via multiple submissions is an anomaly. It certainly could suggest some type of inside collusion. 

Will we ever know?

No, not a chance. 

In my opinion, with no hope of ever knowing, it becomes a moot point. Interesting, maybe troubling, but fruitless.

Edited January 14 by Lightning55

[Microchip]

Hi @gpanalysis I've just contacted you via your website contact function.

 

Are you guys going to identify the CGC Slab tampering list of books within the database?  

Your website helped identify the fraud initially, what steps will you be taking in response to the fraud committed on the CGC community?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

[comicwiz]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:51 AM, Microchip said:

Hi @gpanalysis I've just contacted you via your website contact function.

 

Are you guys going to identify the CGC Slab tampering list of books within the database?  

Your website helped identify the fraud initially, what steps will you be taking in response to the fraud committed on the CGC community?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

Although that wasn't directed at me, I feel it's the same issue I presented to GoCollect when they accounced making changes to their data.

That "impacted list" is in a constant flux. There's books being struck from the list with no "update" markers on the list to even warn anyone trying to use it as a look-up tool.

There are books identified as being part of the alleged "holder tampering" that are being removed from the Verify CGC Certificates lookup, with no redacting, explanation on what the new certification number is, or without making any connection to this incident.

These questions should instead be directed at the company who is supposed to be updating the community regularly as these changes are being made, not those who are being held in suspense with the next move CGC makes. 

The data providers represent the front line of being able to go back in time to investigate what happened. Without the data there is no evidence, and without the discoveries made in this thread, this would be the status quo - and the "nothing to see here" gang would be too busy making hand over fist to be popping-in here and sharing their willfull blindness disguised as wisdom.

From what I've seen thus far, there should be no expectation that the list of "impacted" comics get finalized anytime soon. Until this happens, no one should expect anything from the data providers to change the records. 

Edited January 14 by comicwiz

[CGC Mike]

On 1/14/2024 at 1:17 AM, Microchip said:

Hi @CGC Mike are any of these books sitting in registry sets?

a. If so, is CGC contacting the collectors?

b. are these books going to be withdrawn by CGC from the registry sets?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

I will ask about this.

[MrPcfixer]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:24 PM, CGC Mike said:

While we do allow criticism, we do not allow promoting our competitors.  The video was removed.  No warnings through the point system were issued this time.

So if the words CBCS comes up in ANY post is that also not allowed? I'm asking because I don't want to be punished again for speaking truth. The video posted quite literally didn't promote one case over the other. No where in the video did he say BUY CBCS NOT CGC. It was used for educational purposes and it served its purpose well. That is all there is too it. I'm not taking sides I'm also hoping CGC can take a hint and change the tooling of the cases to get this fixed SOON. But with MANY MANY millions of crack able cases out there its a moot point yes?

[CGC Mike]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:17 AM, MrPcfixer said:

So if the words CBCS comes up in ANY post is that also not allowed? I'm asking because I don't want to be punished again for speaking truth. The video posted quite literally didn't promote one case over the other. No where in the video did he say BUY CBCS NOT CGC. It was used for educational purposes and it served its purpose well.  That is all there is too it. I'm not taking sides I'm also hoping CGC can take a hint and change the tooling of the cases to get this fixed SOON. But with MANY MANY millions of crack able cases out there its a moot point yes?

First of all, there was no formal warning attached to your account.  Secondly, I deemed your post along with the video absolutely did promote the competitor.  I do not think that it is too much to ask that people respect that one sentence rule.  I have edited this post to remove 1 sentence that did again promote the competitor.  Let it go, otherwise, you will be banned from this topic.  

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:14 PM, Lightning55 said:

Same notes on dozens of my books, verbatim. But not on any 9.8's, so there's that....

Submission #4324007 (graded 9/13/23) had all 7 books (30 - 40 years old each) receive 9.8 - bowled a perfect 300!

I've never come close to having a submission like that!

Maybe they were screened for 9.8, but based on other submissions from the Hot 350 that were graded before and after that date, it does not appear that screening was being used, since at least one book from each of those other submissions was lower than 9.8.

The success that this guy had in getting 9.8s on the original submissions (not talking about the reholders) was uncanny!

Just an observation... and maybe a little jealousy!!  

[wiparker824]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:51 PM, Microchip said:

Hi @gpanalysis I've just contacted you via your website contact function.

 

Are you guys going to identify the CGC Slab tampering list of books within the database?  

Your website helped identify the fraud initially, what steps will you be taking in response to the fraud committed on the CGC community?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

They posted a response on pg. 332 of this thread.

[ramithard]

I've got three or four books that have the original blue label.....the ones that have cert numbers that are very small and start with 00

would these be of higher value because they for sure have not been pressed?

Edited January 14 by ramithard

[comicwiz]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:18 PM, gpanalysis said:

What were you looking for us to say? This is a slab tampering and slab processing issue. The fact is without GPAnalysis this would not have been as easily discovered - we've been recording CGC certification numbers against sales for more than two decades, and we also track those certs across historical sales. We also track and identify a number of details that have allowed collectors to see this originally identified as Newsstand book move to a Newsstand/MJ insert designation and delve further into what was going on.

We've supplied data to CGC with respects to this situation, and previously with (the identification of trimmed books sold through Ewert). 

We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.

As a pricing first service, we are also the most complete and accurate information source for CGC books. Our service is used daily by tens of thousands of collectors.

So not really sure what a public statement or email from us at this stage would achieve, especially as information is still being collected and analysed by multiple parties, other than to blow our own horn.

 

(sorry, I just saw this post now)

Thanks @gpanalysis  for everything you have done in the past, present, and continue to do as this situation continues to develop. Our community of collectors is highly indebted to the hard work you've done to make GPA the most reliable source for information on past sales. Without GPA, none of what I was able to uncover through my research would have been possible. 

[comicjel]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:05 PM, ramithard said:

I've got three or four books that have the original blue label.....the ones that have cert numbers that are very small and start with 00

would these be of higher value because they for sure have not been pressed?

Not sure how others feel, but personally I am willing to bid higher on older label high grade books (everything else being equal) - not as much because of probably not being pressed (although that is a plus), but maybe more so because CGC was pretty strict with their grading back then IMO - so I feel like the 9.8s are really quite perfect, and the 9.6s are really more like 9.7s, and maybe more than anything, it reminds me of the good old times!

Edited January 14 by comicjel
To expand on my post

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:13 PM, comicjel said:

Not sure how others feel, but personally I am willing to bid higher on older label high grade books (everything else being equal) - not as much because of probably not being pressed (although that is a plus), but maybe more so because CGC was pretty strict with their grading back then IMO - so I feel like the 9.8s are really quite perfect, and the 9.6s are really more like 9.7s, and maybe more than anything, it reminds me of the good old times!

When I was collecting back in 2006-2008 there was no such thing as a CGC 9.8 with a spine ding other than very rare occasions. This made it harder to obtain many ASM CGC 9.8s. Some of them were basically flawless and could have been potential 9.9s. Having owned 8 ASM 9.9s to compare with some of the old 9.8s it was something else to see. The 9.8's that are given that grade these days........ well let's just say you better take a look at what's in that case if you plan on cracking it to get it signed prior to purchase. Even the best 9.8s can still have damage occur in shipping and possibly handling from artist or people cracking handling book. To be fair my 9.8 retention rate is very high with sending in the best of the best 9.8s so kudos to CGC for the most part on handling my books and the artists handling them but I agree the older books do seem to look much better in comparison to some that have been graded in the last few years.

[MrPcfixer]

Yeah strong hand.

[Lightning55]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:17 AM, MrPcfixer said:

So if the words CBCS comes up in ANY post is that also not allowed? I'm asking because I don't want to be punished again for speaking truth. The video posted quite literally didn't promote one case over the other. No where in the video did he say BUY CBCS NOT CGC. It was used for educational purposes and it served its purpose well. That is all there is too it. I'm not taking sides I'm also hoping CGC can take a hint and change the tooling of the cases to get this fixed SOON. But with MANY MANY millions of crack able cases out there its a moot point yes?

How to poke a bear...

On 1/14/2024 at 8:36 AM, CGC Mike said:

First of all, there was no formal warning attached to your account.  Secondly, I deemed your post along with the video absolutely did promote the competitor.  I do not think that it is too much to ask that people respect that one sentence rule.  I have edited this post to remove 1 sentence that did again promote the competitor.  Let it go, otherwise, you will be banned from this topic.  

Bear poking back, with restraint.