ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Microchip]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:46 AM, comicwiz said:

But we definitely have the evidence showing the subversion of more than "holder tampering"; rather, the very real problem with downstream impacts this has had on their certification look-up and systems we use for pricing is that CGC is showing an unusual penchant for quietly purging information in the background without explanation. Some of the information being purged is vital to the ways an investigation is able to gather a chain of evidence, which in itself seemingly reveals a pattern of tampering with evidence. The discourse needs to focus on the latter, and the reasons why this is happening, rather than the down the line impacts of the other ways this incident has manipulated the market. 

I think from CGC's side it makes sense, IF they receive in an affected book, regrade it and make amends.

And your absolutely right, we need a record of events, and not simply archived webpages as proof of what transpired.

Thinking about the GPA side of things, some kind of notification against affected cert numbers, as opposed to removal from the database would be a better outcome for the CGC community, and their website.

[Microchip]

On 1/16/2024 at 4:17 AM, CGC Mike said:

What happens to impacted books in CGC Comics Registry sets?

CGC is contacting the owners of impacted books in the CGC Comics Registry to request that they submit the books for Holder Review.

 

Thanks @CGC Mike 

[agamoto]

@CGC Mike Hi, pardon me, but could you please ask if you can add answers to these questions to the FAQ? 

1. Since buying fraudulently misrepresented books from someone over the internet and shipped across state lines means a likely wire/mail fraud charge, does CGC's legal cousel recommend victims file a fraud report with the FBI and/or FTC?

2. If not, why is that?

3. While federal law enforcement generally does not comment on any investigation, they do not put any such restriction on others who are party to an investigation. Has CGC contacted federal investigators regarding this incident?

[agamoto]

On 1/15/2024 at 5:46 AM, comicwiz said:

It's a lot more complicated than what you are describing (esp the part I bolded). The issue is that this whole situation is continually evolving and is nowhere near being finalized. That 350 list continues to shrink with books being struck off the list, and I continue finding books not on the original list. The other part of this is that certification numbers are being purged from the CGC Verify Certification look-up. No redacting or manner of explaning why, no connection at all to these books, serving in some instances as a donor book to a swap. The reason I posted the examples and matrix with Project Green to Blue was to capture a glimpse into the manner this was being monetized, often with donor books being purchased a month or several months prior to the blue example selling at a factor of two or in multiples of the donor. The other things I've only spoken of is the way certain books would repeatedly be sold, and this is something that needs to be reconciled at some point, but it is VERY early in the investigative stages. It could be even worse than some of the things we've talked about, with more than just two books sharing the same cert number. I'd like to see CGC reveal some of their own findings. They've become so comfortable letting the community do the grunt work, discovery and fact pattern finding that expecting some level of collaborative back and forth is a pipe dream at this point. But we definitely have the evidence showing the subversion of more than "holder tampering"; rather, the very real problem with downstream impacts this has had on their certification look-up and systems we use for pricing is that CGC is showing an unusual penchant for quietly purging information in the background without explanation. Some of the information being purged is vital to the ways an investigation is able to gather a chain of evidence, which in itself seemingly reveals a pattern of tampering with evidence. The discourse needs to focus on the latter, and the reasons why this is happening, rather than the down the line impacts of the other ways this incident has manipulated the market. 

I'm sure nothing's being destroyed, and all the data on the matter is just being internatized and well documented... But I have to wonder why, since cracking open any potentially swapped book and reencapsulating for return, regardless if graders believe the grade is warranted or not, seems to fly in the face of 18 U.S.C. § 1519 or other statutes meant to preserve evidence. The slabs and inner wells could have someone's hair in them, skin flakes, the traces of a chemical found in the suspects shop, fingerprints, etc. 

[Tom789]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:32 PM, Lightning55 said:

I have had about 400-500 9.8's, from Bronze, Copper, and Modern submissions. I never got notes, to my knowledge, on even a single 9.8. Maybe not even a single 9.6. I have heard of people getting notes on 9.8's. Very rarely, though.

To get a large percentage of notes on 9.8's via multiple submissions is an anomaly. It certainly could suggest some type of inside collusion. 

Will we ever know?

No, not a chance. 

In my opinion, with no hope of ever knowing, it becomes a moot point. Interesting, maybe troubling, but fruitless.

I've submitted 180 books and received 26 9.6s and 21 9.8s.  I've gotten grader notes on four 9.6s and one 9.8.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:44 PM, agamoto said:

On 1/13/2024 at 6:31 PM, Dr. Love said:

Have you tried reaching out to Mike Nelson about your concerns?

I did, but I got no response. Maybe I should try "Matt". 

Their response is in.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

 

On 1/14/2024 at 12:15 PM, MrPcfixer said:

Yeah strong hand.

[CGC Mike]

@onlyweaknesskryptonite I have hid that post twice.  3 strikes and you are out.

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/15/2024 at 7:54 PM, CGC Mike said:

@onlyweaknesskryptonite I have hid that post twice.  3 strikes and you are out.

Sorry.  When I caught up I didn't see it posted and when I clicked on the reply at the bottom of page it showed back up there . So I believed it didn't post. Which has been a common glitch with the boards.

My bad.

[joeypost]

I hope this gets resolved soon, as it is impacting TAT’s. 

[grendel013]

On 1/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Thanks for posting this. Since Matt and CGC can determine FMV of a graded slab maybe they can save me some time and money and add that to the registry. Just a suggestion...

[grendel013]

So we are sticking to the lone gunman theory?

[comicwiz]

On 1/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Thanks @WestcoastDAVEngers for the shout out, and to both you and Manu for asking some important questions during the interview. I want to also thank @mnelsonCGC for providing the community a human touch point during this turbulent period in our hobby. I was pleased to hear the certs were being kept internally, and at the 46 minute mark, to hear CGC will be prosecuting this individual to the full extent of the law.

[Gonzimodo]

On 1/15/2024 at 5:56 PM, Dr. Balls said:

It still doesn't. 

The inserts kind of annoyed me when I was buying them, but now I really cherish them because they're keepsakes of my time in the Army.  When I open one of my comics and see that MJI, I know exactly where and when I bought it.  

But, yeah, I have no desire to seek out any more to add to my collection.  New ones bought on the secondary market wouldn't feel as "legit" to my collection because I'm an obsessive weirdo, I guess.  

[BrashL]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Holy mess that plaque is cringy. Maybe he should have gotten them a little junior pilot badge for "helping out" in the cockpit too. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/15/2024 at 7:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Well done. Of course you know this forum and thread (myself included) are going to be filled with the people who Manu mentioned at the end that are going to be saying “why didn’t you ask this!” But before I get to that just wanted to say thank you to both of you and @mnelsonCGC for doing this and do hope you guys come together for a part 2.

Quick thoughts: 

1. The final note about them not opening holders sent back to them on this list to verify is very interesting. This tells me they have some tool or process already in place to determine a book was swapped by this individual. What that may be I understand they can’t divulge but it is very interesting. I think a lot of us thought that the books were all being cracked, regraded and checked for things like MJI, MVS, if they are the grade they say, coupon cut, resto, live ink on signatures, etc. How they are doing that without cracking the books is certainly fascinating.

2. The lone individual responsible I’d have liked to know if they’ve narrowed it to one individual who submitted the reholders or one CGC account that might have been used by one or multiple individuals. Furthermore was the party that submitted the reholders the same party that then sold the fraudulent books immediately after (thru eBay, CL or anywhere else) or was the person that submitted for reholders using a dealer account to handle their submissions and then reselling later.

3. Since the AF 15 SS was brought up Matt said he’s not seen that book personally yet. Which I know Matt isn’t the only one that works at CGC but that book seems like one he’d have seen if it came thru? Yet the grade date was updated to 1/5/24 on that book. This implies the book was regraded 2 days after the list was provided on 1/3/24. If it’s not in their possession why was the graded date updated? How was it graded? And if it’s a clean bill of health why wasn’t it crossed out after being graded?

 

[BrashL]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Just finished listening. That last question from Manu seems to have caught Matt off-guard so it's hard to be sure, but he implies they have a way of determining if the holders were tampered with without opening them. If this is true it's absolute malpractice not to share this with the community immediately. It's also entirely disingenuous to say "just email us if you suspect tampering" without letting anyone know what to look for. The only reasonable conclusion is they know this is widespread and don't want to be inundated with returns and refunds. 

[Mikey C]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:13 AM, BrashL said:

Just finished listening. That last question from Manu seems to have caught Matt off-guard so it's hard to be sure, but he implies they have a way of determining if the holders were tampered with without opening them. If this is true it's absolute malpractice not to share this with the community immediately. It's also entirely disingenuous to say "just email us if you suspect tampering" without letting anyone know what to look for. The only reasonable conclusion is they know this is widespread and don't want to be inundated with returns and refunds. 

The problem is, the book would have been reholdered and not shown signs of tampering. So this tells me they might have scans of books before they started making the images public to be able to tell? I’m confused by Matt’s answer.

[BrashL]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:00 AM, Mikey C said:

The problem is, the book would have been reholdered and not shown signs of tampering. So this tells me they might have scans of books before they started making the images public to be able to tell? I’m confused by Matt’s answer.

Good point. Curiouser and curiouser.