ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[paqart]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:31 PM, agamoto said:

Except the lower grade comics that were substituted into the higher grade cases were, in fact, graded by CGC. That's one of my beefs with the way the complaint was written as they clearly are sidestepping the very important detail about the donor books... They weren't simply pulled off the $1 bin rack from some comic store, they were CGC authenticated genuine books still encased in their inner-sleeve. 

Also, their own description of the reholdering process indicates they remove the comic sent in from the case and the inner sleeve and the book is assessed prior to being re-encapsulated again. 

Full disclosure, my wife agrees with you and @comicwiz

[agamoto]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:45 PM, paqart said:

They may have been graded at one time, but not on the occasion when they received a grade bump. If you buy an Action #1 graded at 1.5, it is CGC-graded. If you break it out of the case, it was CGC-graded. If you slip it into a case with a 9.0 label, CGC did not grade it 9.0. Therefore, in that holder, it is no longer CGC graded. Breaking it out of the original holder is like nullifying a marriage: it is as if it had never happened. Saying that someone whose marriage was annulled is now married to someone else on the basis that the names on the marriage certificates match, when the person involved is not the same, does not make them married.

The funny thing about your example is that something exactly like that could actually happen. I've seen plenty of golden-age books with perfectly split spines that are practically flawless. 

So let's say I took my 9.0 Action Comics #1, and popped it out of its case. I then did the same to my 1.5 and then slipped the Action 1.5 and inner well into the 9.0 case (or just put the 9.0 label in the 1.5 case). 

If CGC actually did what they say they do in the reholdering/relabeling process, my 1.5 Action Comics once removed from its original inner sleeve, would never have been put back into a 9.0 case.

Except, based on what we've seen play out possibly 369 to 2000 times, the people responsible for double checking my 1.5 Action was really a 9.0 failed to perform and I probably would have received a 9.0 Action comics #1 in the mail with a completely split spine held together with glue.  

 

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:06 PM, paqart said:

Full disclosure, my wife agrees with you and @comicwiz

She has to join the boards now 

[comicjel]

Now that we know that CGC has been investigating, at least the internal scam, for 6 months or so, and two separate lawsuits have been filed, and scans were added to the "verify" module a while ago, and a note about counterfeiting was added a while ago, and a lot of attention has been brought over the last month, I suspect that CGC has, by now, figured out the scam(s) completely.

I don't think "we" have, but I think "they" have.

It is likely we will never be told everything they know, and although I would like to know, I understand that for many reasons they can't / won't tell us.

Through the last month, my mind has been changed on many facets of the scam(s) by all of you (hat tip to Comicwiz and Sledge).

I am now of the opinion that both scams were related (i.e. that the Terrazas' were the insiders that were helping the other scammers) and that CBS was also likely involved (if not the main scammer).

- I find it too coincidental that there were 2 independent scams happening at the same time that involved reholdering inferior books.

- I am not sure CGC would even file the suit they did against the Terrazas' if they were not looking for their cooperation with the outside scammers.

- The CBS heat gun photo is hard to ignore (along with their Instagram).

- Labels being changed on reholders without scans or grader notes being reviewed implies inside help to me.

- The reference to CBS in the filing did not sound to me as I would expect they would be referred to if CGC felt that they were innocent and fully cooperating.

I think they are all related to some degree, and CGC is working their way up the ladder.

 

 

   

 

[paqart]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:06 PM, agamoto said:

The funny thing about your example is that something exactly like that could actually happen. I've seen plenty of golden-age books with perfectly split spines that are practically flawless. 

So let's say I took my 9.0 Action Comics #1, and popped it out of its case. I then did the same to my 1.5 and then slipped the Action 1.5 and inner well into the 9.0 case (or just put the 9.0 label in the 1.5 case). 

If CGC actually did what they say they do in the reholdering/relabeling process, my 1.5 Action Comics once removed from its original inner sleeve, would never have been put back into a 9.0 case.

Except, based on what we've seen play out possibly 369 to 2000 times, the people responsible for double checking my 1.5 Action was really a 9.0 failed to perform and I probably would have received a 9.0 Action comics #1 in the mail with a completely split spine held together with glue.  

 

This is where, I think, the problem lies, not on the definition of "counterfeit." I have a hard time believing there wasn't an inside man on this. The idea that out of all the people working at CGC, a random group of them would randomly not look at 369 reholdered comics before reholdering is hard to believe,

Also, I just got off the phone with my insurance industry friend, with whom I discussed this case. First, he agrees with you about the insurance payout I received for my stolen comics. He thinks there was something else going on that I didn't know about, like the judge was convinced by something else, even if not my trstimony, because, "not even the most honest insurance company in the world would pay out if they didn't have to."

Second, he thinks CGC is in bigger trouble than it might look right now. The reason is that there are too many victims in this case to effectively manage by compensating them for losses. It isn't a question of money, but willingness to accept the deal offered. I agree, it is difficult to get that many people to agree on anything no matter what it is. That makes it very likely that some will break ranks and sue CGC in a class action.

There is also damage to the market value and salability of the affected comics, which seems to have spread to all copies of ASM 300, 252, etc. That is harder to quantify, but the bottom line from him was, "Yep, they're cooked." Personally, I think CGC will make it through, but I am concerned about the possibility this was enabled by someone at CGC that purposely slipped the comics through the reholdering process without checking to see if they were the right comics.

[paqart]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:08 PM, comicwiz said:

She has to join the boards now 

She appreciates the thought, but leaves the collecting to me. She buys comics, but only as a general reader.

[grendel013]

everything is everything. approximately 401 pages.

[CGC Mike]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:06 AM, comicwiz said:

@CGC Mike 

I think @HighGrade brings up a valid point here that is worthy of getting some verification from the CGC team on for the wider community to better understand the timeline of when this change occurred. It is unfortunate that we are seemingly seeing updates/changes to information which collectors rely on, and it being done without any announcement or notice, leaving some of us doubting even what we think has happened, or when it's happening.

The question specifically pertains to the following verbiage that is now appearing underneath the photos on Cert# look-ups:

"If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here."

From my perspective, I've been taking screenshots for posterity, and to track changes, for at least the better part of an entire month. However not all screenshots of certs I took had photos, and I also cropped out the area beneath the photos.

However, from the notation itself, there are several aspects to the wording that indicate this is something that meshes aligns with the recent actions against the alleged perpetrators of two seperate incidents, as outlined by two seperate lawsuits. The most telling for me is the use of "counterfeit or tampered CGC holder" as well as a link to the "counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here" linking to the announcement that was only made on Jan 3rd, 2024.

In addition to having some elaboration or explanation as when this notation was added, and when the changes mentioning "counterfeit or tampered" were added, I would also like to know if this notation was added accross all cert entries, and if so, when that happened. On the latter point, I simply want to understand if this notation was added just for impacted books, then when was it decided to expand it to all certs. 

Thanks Mike!

I sent a note.

[comeaux]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:59 PM, awakeintheashes said:

I was hoping this thread would bring about a @dgarthwaite-migration appearance, but instead we get this…

That guy was awesome. His girlfriend was a supermodel, an airline pilot and her friends cousin sat next to the soundman for Jakyl. 

[comicguy123]

Will be in interesting to see what involvement CBS ultimately had, and how liable they may really end up  being. The pics on Instagram show lots of copies of affected books,albeit raw...

which begs the question- how easy would it be to produce inner wells that match the ones CGC is using? I cracked open an Avengers V2#1 recently, and was surprised how crudely the inner well was in fact produced. It looks easy to make.

Just a thought..

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:49 PM, comicjel said:

- The reference to CBS in the filing did not sound to me as I would expect they would be referred to if CGC felt that they were innocent and fully cooperating.

I agree. Them mentioning the use of their account was in "violation" was something that stuck out to me too.

[comicwiz]

Information withheld

 

Edited February 16 by comicwiz

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:12 PM, comeaux said:

That guy was awesome. His girlfriend was a supermodel, an airline pilot and her friends cousin sat next to the soundman for Jakyl. 

Holy cow, I had to access some ollllllld memories when you brought that up.

[paqart]

So where are we at @comicwiz on the question whether Riva and Zanello had inside help on their scam? I don't see any way CGC would let 369 bad reholder requests go through without checking them unless the comics were set up to land on  one person's desk, and that person was helping.

I see the connection you're making between the two scammer pairs but am curious what that looks like in relation to the reholdering business. At this point, the information released so far indicates to me that there was an inside man at CGC assisting in the enterprise.

[sd2416]

On 2/8/2024 at 11:29 AM, paqart said:

So where are we at @comicwiz on the question whether Riva and Zanello had inside help on their scam? I don't see any way CGC would let 369 bad reholder requests go through without checking them unless the comics were set up to land on  one person's desk, and that person was helping.

I see the connection you're making between the two scammer pairs but am curious what that looks like in relation to the reholdering business. At this point, the information released so far indicates to me that there was an inside man at CGC assisting in the enterprise.

There would have to be an inside man, right? 

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:38 PM, sd2416 said:

There would have to be an inside man, right? 

If yes, then while terrible, it would explain the failure in reholder process. 

If no, then we’ve got two big messes and failures that have hopefully been corrected. 

[paqart]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:38 PM, sd2416 said:

There would have to be an inside man, right? 

I think so, but CGC isn't suggesting that in their lawsuit. They have accused the other couple of pulling an inside job, which suggests they are willing to out any bad employees. Therefore, either they aren't aware of an inside component to the reholdering scandal, there isn't an inside person, or there is and they've decided to conceal it. 
If there isn't an inside person, then CGC has seriously compromised their reputation with a gaping hole in their certification process by allowing unvetted reholdering at a massive scale. If there is an inside person, and they must have at least considered the possibility, I wonder why that person(s) hasn't been found yet or is being concealed. My opinion is that if a CGC emplyee helped Zanello and Riva, it is better for CGC than if not. The reason is that they can say, "there is the problem" and get rid of it by firing the person, suing them, and prosecuting criminally. If there isn't an inside person, CGC really failed at their most fundamental job: certifying authenticity of comics in their holders.

Bottom line:
1) Inside man limits scope of reholdering scandal to identified comics
2) No inside man means all CGC holders become questionable, including but not limited to reholders.

Edited February 8 by paqart
Added detail

[comicwiz]

Information withheld

Edited February 16 by comicwiz

[comicjel]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:38 PM, sd2416 said:

There would have to be an inside man, right? 

I could have actually rationalized that they might "not" have had an inside person if the scam was limited to reholder books, and if many of their original summitted 9.8s looked to be strong 9.8s and were almost always reholdered before sold - that would have made sense and seemed plausible to me.

The problem was, and the reason I think there must have been someone on the inside, was that many of the originally submitted books that received 9.8 were not strong 9.8s (IMO) and were just sold instead of being reholdered (which really made no sense if the scam was to reholder inferior swapped books).  To me the inside guy was more (or equally) for the originally submitted (generous) grades than for the reholdering aspect - and maybe this evolved more recently.

But then, there also seemed to be a reholder person that was changing labels from non-MJI to MJI; and non-newstand to newstand, apparently without checking the original scans (or notes) and, as I emphasized in an earlier post, the part of this label changing swap that I found more difficult to accept, was not that the reholder department might be somewhat lax with such label changes (I could accept that pretty easily), but more so that the outside scammer would have felt comfortable that they would not be discovered by attempting this type of swap / label change... how could the outside scammers feel so bold with such a risky label change, that you would almost expect to be scrutinized more, unless they had someone on the inside?

Now enter Mr. Terrazas, based on the recent filing... he is a grader (check) and he had access to reholdering books (check) and he was able to print labels for reholdered books that did not match the book being reholdered (check) and he had a spouse who had internal access as well (check) - if you were to search for the perfect inside guy for what we see happening, this would be your "one stop" inside guy! (or certainly someone with similar access).

Now consider the case brought against the Terrazas'... what was it, 23 stolen books? - huge deal I agree!; graded (by someone else), and then reholdered with incorrect (higher grade) labels - horrible I agree!.  But how many of you attorneys out there feel that CGC would have brought this type of "public" filing for these 23 books (after they were already fired)? - to me this case had a reason that went beyond getting this already fired couple to return the remaining (if any) books that they had not already sold (or to try to get a recovery from them).  I just don't see this lawsuit (including the timing) being pursued if they were independent of the outside scammers.

There are other things...

- SS books that seem involved somehow (by both inside and outside scammers)

- Unbelievable quick turn around times on things

- Grader notes on 9.8s that seem unusual 

So yes, I feel there must have been an inside guy, and I feel it was possibly Mr. Terrazas or someone with similar access (just my opinion based on 401 pages of reading!) 

    

   

  

 

Edited February 8 by comicjel

[brute_nm]

I can't wait for someone to find a super old social media picture with Zanello, Riva, and the Terrazases on some beach or ski trip