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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

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grendel013

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On 2/23/2024 at 4:27 PM, EastEnd1 said:

That comic store also had photos with that white carpet background if I recall correctly... hm

 

On 2/23/2024 at 4:30 PM, comicjel said:

It sure did... and a heat gun!

 

On 2/23/2024 at 4:34 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Yep!  And right next to a trimming table!

Oh! You mean Comic Book Station in Brooklyn. Yeah. Those guys!

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OldGuy

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On 12/22/2023 at 2:03 PM, brute_nm said:

As we approach 75 pages, I'm worried that the details of the seller and the scam will get lost in all the side conversations and bickering.  Here's my attempt at summarizing what we know right now.

I know this is a rapidly-evolving situation, and stuff will likely change in coming days/weeks, but hopefully this helps distill the thread down to a digestible level.

Fraud originally discovered and reported by Dave (@WestcoastDAVEngers, IG @west_coast_davengers) and Manu (IG @the9.9newsstand).

Rough timeline of events

Scammer's known eBay aliases and approx timelines selling on eBay:

  • corner142 (29-Jan-2011 to 2-Mar-2014)
  • elysium142
  • zaneglor (6-Jul-2014 to 28-Aug-2022)
  • aureliaag
  • briva3 (25-Sep-2022 to 19-Dec-2023)
  • Comic Selects
  • azwildcatz520 (2018) UNCONFIRMED

reholder_scam_summary.thumb.png.ed1febfbda8ae2f4c12ebabbe935c887.png

reholder_scam_how_it_works.thumb.png.53a2f01ef8713cc071334ffc079fc88f.png

Proof pictures of Hulk 181's.  All these green label "donor books" became blue labels:

Other confirmed fraudulent books:

 

Thanks to @comicwiz, @agamoto, @THE_BEYONDER, @WestcoastDAVEngers, @sledgehammer, @Christophe9999, @Comics, @mephistopheles, @Timmay, @AbsoluteCarnage, @bsmith, @Mdesimone, and others for mining data with WorthPoint, Terapeak, GoCollect, and CGC census.

Thanks for taking the time to summarize this. It’s appreciated.

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Sensei Ryan

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On 2/8/2024 at 9:37 PM, comeaux said:

There was definitely an inside man and also an outside man who had special privileges at CGC above others. When he submits books for reholder, he doesn’t even send in the book in a broken/cracked case, he just sends in a book and a label and CGC does the deed for him. I can’t mention his name or I get another week vacation, it upsets the natives.   

The idea of this happening in ANY capacity for ANY submitter at CGC is beyond unacceptable. Is there any substantial proof that this is occurring?

If so, it would be a HUGE liability for the company as that's way too much trust to put into a submitter as ALL reholders are subject to re-grading and should NEVER be put into a new holder without any form of review.

NO ONE should get that kind of preferential treatment. NO ONE. 

Also, in no way should you @comeaux be subject to getting any sort of ban or suspension for mentioning this if it is found to be true. I'm honestly surprise we've not heard more about this because to me the idea of submitters getting special treatment and ignored reviews of submitted comics for reholdering is just as bad as the current scandal at the heart of this thread.

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shadroch

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On 2/24/2024 at 3:15 PM, Sensei Ryan said:

The idea of this happening in ANY capacity for ANY submitter at CGC is beyond unacceptable. Is there any substantial proof that this is occurring?

If so, it would be a HUGE liability for the company as that's way too much trust to put into a submitter as ALL reholders are subject to re-grading and should NEVER be put into a new holder without any form of review.

NO ONE should get that kind of preferential treatment. NO ONE. 

Also, in no way should you @comeaux be subject to getting any sort of ban or suspension for mentioning this if it is found to be true. I'm honestly surprise we've not heard more about this because to me the idea of submitters getting special treatment and ignored reviews of submitted comics for reholdering is just as bad as the current scandal at the heart of this thread.

CGC has a long and well-documented history of having preferential treatment for some customers. They ran a secret pressing operation for years, even after some of their top guys denied it.   I asked about replacing a slab at a show and was told they weren't doing re-holders in person.  At a CGC-sponsored dinner  that night, I listened as a big dealer talked about having two books available tomorrow, as they were re-holdered that day.  When the Ewert scandal broke, it was revealed that CGC was storing raw books for a big customer.

The hits keep coming.

 

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CGC Mike

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On 2/24/2024 at 5:15 PM, Sensei Ryan said:

Also, in no way should you @comeaux be subject to getting any sort of ban or suspension for mentioning this if it is found to be true.

I agree.  The 2 day suspension was for posting an inappropriate image.

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comicwiz

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Posted (edited)
On 2/24/2024 at 5:15 PM, Sensei Ryan said:

The idea of this happening in ANY capacity for ANY submitter at CGC is beyond unacceptable. Is there any substantial proof that this is occurring?

If so, it would be a HUGE liability for the company as that's way too much trust to put into a submitter as ALL reholders are subject to re-grading and should NEVER be put into a new holder without any form of review.

NO ONE should get that kind of preferential treatment. NO ONE. 

Also, in no way should you @comeaux be subject to getting any sort of ban or suspension for mentioning this if it is found to be true. I'm honestly surprise we've not heard more about this because to me the idea of submitters getting special treatment and ignored reviews of submitted comics for reholdering is just as bad as the current scandal at the heart of this thread.

I agree.

So in receiving preferential tratement, and then expecting things to be hushed when loose lips gather a foot, there's an unmistakable level of deniability modelled to the avarice of an alleged seller at the center of exploiting the reholder process in the most perverse manner possible - and the unwillingness to recognize the perversion is one thing, but boasting about it - demonstrates the ethos is the same.

Banning any member for revealing this hypocrisy is wrong.

Edited by comicwiz
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MasterChief

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Just now getting caught up with this interesting and informative thread. Took a cursory rewind backward in time and came across the following post...

On 12/23/2023 at 9:35 AM, VintageComics said:

Regrading a book gives you a new certification number. If anything, it disproves the "new label / reholder" theory which keeps the same cert number with the book, which means this book was likely regraded and therefore inspected by CGC. 

I realize Roy is banned so I’m not necessarily responding to him but to the larger conversation surrounding his comment.   

I have collected hundreds of before and after images of manipulated books and twice as many associated datapoints of books increasing in grade through apparent maximization means. All through the years of gathering that information, I have never documented an instance where a book increased in grade and yet somehow retained the very same (original) certification number after resubmission. The label ALWAYS changes to a new grade, a new grade date, a NEW certification number, and more often than not, a new page quality.

Nor have I witnessed a straightforward reholdering submission – from old to new generation holder and/or from traditional label to new pedigree label – receive a new higher grade and retain its original certification number. The procedural process never changes. The resubmitted book only gets a new certification number IF the grade changes. It doesn’t retain the original number. That fact has held constant until I recently came across the following two examples.

These books were obviously regraded and reholdered from 2nd generation holders to 3rd generation holders with the new pedigree label as illuminated by before and after imagery.

They have been reassigned higher grades and new grade dates (regraded) in the certification database (initial certification information removed); however, they have somehow retained their original certification numbers that were issued years earlier during initial or secondary authentication and certification.

Not exactly sure how that worked out. CGC has advertised the exact opposite down through the years and has directly answered questions related to the specific process for certification number changes during reholdering.
    
I can’t help but wonder if this is a clerical error committed by a new, uneducated employee or if it was purposefully done to obscure certification history for an elite collector or dealer of these legendary grails prior to liquidation by means of favoritism and the “secret handshake.”

In any event, this unfortunate discovery brings to mind the following past claim that rocked the community herein during the early days of the certification age:

“Select clients who maintained a membership agreement with CGC and who were sworn to secrecy were offered the opportunity to send in their comic books to CGC and have a CGC in-house improvement service maximize the physical condition before undergoing the grading and slabbing service.”

**********

Edgar Church copy of Superman #1: Initially authenticated and certified in 2004 as 7.5, it was regraded in 2014 as 8.0. The book is now an 8.5 with a new grade date of 1/10/2022 (exact same certification number as the 8.0 copy).

superman-1_8-0_8-5_compare.thumb.jpg.2377cf69ac4394b937b3f0d62dab3564.jpg

1072525001_CGC-Certification2.thumb.png.75b0c48dafa84a72c957a6ca4bf40c57.png

 

Kansas City copy of Action Comics #1: Initially authenticated and certified in 2010 as 8.0 with OFF-WHITE Pages. The book is now an 8.5 with OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Pages. It has a new grade date of 11/04/2021 (exact same certification number as the 8.0 copy).

AC-1_8-0_8-5_compare.thumb.jpg.04685deebb439c1048398bd12997c305.jpg

Verify_CGC_Certification_1012698001.thumb.png.2592af8911588f99a38246829cb3a760.png

 

gettinganewserialnumberduringareholder-4.png.b373082da0749144fa82da32fda50d5e.png

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sledgehammer

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Posted (edited)

Note the statement in that thread that @MasterChief noted below.

Yea, I mean,  "No, freakin' DUH!!". 

Is @ccgcollector, someone other than who has been outed so far????

"Can a currently-slabbed CGC 9.8 book be submitted for a regrade?  And pre-screened for a 9.8 as well?

Let's say I have 5 Modern CGC books that are already slabbed as CGC 9.8's.  All I want to do is to have CGC replace the serial numbers on those books with new serial numbers; but I don't want to run the risk of losing those 9.8 grades.  I'm fine with paying reholder or Modern grading fees for this service.  What would be the recommended course of action to do this?"

 

 

Edited by sledgehammer
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EastEnd1

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On 2/25/2024 at 9:44 AM, sledgehammer said:

Note the statement in that thread that @MasterChief noted below.

Yea, I mean,  "No, freakin' DUH!!". 

Is @ccgcollector, someone other than who has been outed so far????

There's no way that Zanello asked that question LAST SUMMER.

 

"Can a currently-slabbed CGC 9.8 book be submitted for a regrade?  And pre-screened for a 9.8 as well?

Let's say I have 5 Modern CGC books that are already slabbed as CGC 9.8's.  All I want to do is to have CGC replace the serial numbers on those books with new serial numbers; but I don't want to run the risk of losing those 9.8 grades.  I'm fine with paying reholder or Modern grading fees for this service.  What would be the recommended course of action to do this?"

 

 

Have to say, going to the CGC boards for info on scamming CGC itself is an "interesting" approach.  It does have the little issue of leaving a neat trail for the amazing comic detectives on those boards, however.   

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sledgehammer

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Posted (edited)
On 2/25/2024 at 8:57 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Have to say, going to the CGC boards for info on scamming CGC itself is an "interesting" approach.  It does have the little issue of leaving a neat trail for the amazing comic detectives on those boards, however.   

Immediately after scans start showing up in the notes, the question gets posed.

Edited by sledgehammer
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