CGC Files Lawsuit Against Employees 30 30

[Sauce Dog]

Can we add that employee to the Hall of Shame sellers list now?  

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:31 AM, Nick Furious said:

On 2/3/2024 at 11:04 AM, Jimmy Linguini said:

So does CGC not have cameras that cover the entire "secured facility"?

In fairness to CGC, cameras can be a proactive visual deterrent, but they are typically reactive in terms of viewing the footage. 

Their actual cameras..

[sledgehammer]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:02 PM, mikenyc said:

 

Buy the book and not the grade and you’ll be fine. Unless the books are high dollar and then you’re probably f ed. 

every time that I see a comment like this, my mind goes immediately to the fact that it has been discovered that multiple Incredible Hulk 181s, in blue label slabs, have been determined to have originally been qualified books in green label slabs. Probably a little too early in this process to categorize anything in general terms. 

[comicwiz]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:29 PM, MasterChief said:

Sounds like someone’s moral compass wasn’t wound tight enough.

I went to check how my tightly wound moral compass has been trading lately, and I have to report it is trading at shockingly strong prices since the injunction/restraining order filing. 

Edited February 4 by comicwiz

[Chip Cataldo]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:02 PM, mikenyc said:

Once private equity money enters the equation the notion of comic book collectors at heart vanguarding your collectibles like they were their own, goes out the window. Replace comics with Twinkies or cars or software or any other product, they’re all interchangeable. The motivation becomes cost cutting and efficiency to streamline and increase profits. Quality control, personnel, infrastructure, everything becomes secondary to profit margins. 

The number of these type of failures will increase as the individuals who may have started out with good intentions are forced to fall on their swords and are replaced with other individuals who focus solely on the profit motive to the detriment of end consumers.

This should be the final post in every CGC "scandal" and "inexplicable performance/QC" thread. None of it matters, because this post by @mikenyc is the absolute truth regarding any CGC situation.

[Corvonie]

I have literally the biggest book I’ve ever owned (money-wise) w them right now.  Just said it’s being graded and QC purgatory is always the hardest part of the wait.  If it’s in QC for more than two days I’m gonna start asking for proof of life daily 🤣🤣

[Lightning55]

I didn't know that you wind a compass...at all.

[Number 6]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:53 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

This should be the final post in every CGC "scandal" and "inexplicable performance/QC" thread. None of it matters, because this post by @mikenyc is the absolute truth regarding any CGC situation.

Since you’re fond of repeatedly posting “business-as-usual” and “nothing-to-see” I would like to ask:

It’s clear that you don’t think that these two scandals in as many months, which cut to the heart of the service CGC offers, are going to have any meaningful impact on their business or market share, but is there ANY amount or degree of scandal in a given period of time that you could foresee  having a negative impact on CGC’s business and their place in the market?

Or are you of the conviction that CGC, in creating a business to seal children’s disposable cartoon pamphlets in between two pieces of plastic has somehow managed to create the perfect, indestructible business model for which no amount of scandal, incompetence, dishonesty or bafoonery can have any impact on their business at all?

 

Edited February 4 by Number 6

[I like pie]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:53 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

This should be the final post in every CGC "scandal"

I'm forced to roll my eyes backwards seeing you comment on scandals.

[skypinkblu]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:21 PM, Lightning55 said:

I didn't know that you wind a compass...at all.

A discussion that took place eons ago...between 2 people here. It really had nothing to do with compasses, although I was also a little baffled by the term at the time. 

[ttfitz]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:02 PM, Number 6 said:

Since you’re fond of repeatedly posting “business-as-usual” and “nothing-to-see” I would like to ask:

It’s clear that you don’t think that these two scandals in as many months, which cut to the heart of the service CGC offers, are going to have any meaningful impact on their business or market share, but is there ANY amount or degree of scandal in a given period of time that you could foresee  having a negative impact on CGC’s business and their place in the market?

Or are you of the conviction that CGC, in creating a business to seal children’s disposable cartoon pamphlets in between two pieces of plastic has somehow managed to create the perfect, indestructible business model for which no amount of scandal, incompetence, dishonesty or bafoonery can have any impact on their business at all?

 

I think you have your answer right here in this thread, a page higher:

On 2/3/2024 at 7:14 PM, mikenyc said:

Also to not be a complete hypocrite, even with all the drama going on I plan to continuing purchasing CGC books, as even with problems, believe them to be the best option available. 
 

 

[namisgr]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, EastEnd1 said:

 

The court filing says he stole 23 submitted comics... 

 

Thanks for the focus on this part of the filing.

It says the perp admitted to stealing 23 comics.  It remains possible that the true number is actually larger.  And of the 23 admittedly stolen, the perp had seven of them encapsulated with labels sporting higher grades that were duplicated from other graded examples - the true number of swaps with bogus grades is, then, a minimum of seven.

Over the past couple of years, there have been so many threads on the boards about encapsulated books that don't look anything like they're deserving of the assigned grades.  With the outsider 'swap-gate' and insider 'swap-gate' now providing concrete examples of slabbed books being labelled in ways that have nothing to do with their actual grades and conditions, it becomes increasingly challenging for collectors of slabbed books and venues selling them to identify comics that have been innocently overgraded, a normal part of the high volume, subjective, imperfect, and sometimes rushed nature of the third party grading process, from those that may be sporting labels that are fraudulent and have nothing to do with actual condition and grade of the slabbed comic.

Here's a post of mine from one of those threads from 2022 wondering whether there might be a problem within CGC that could explain some of these instances of gross overgrading:

On 9/28/2022 at 3:34 PM, namisgr said:

It makes me suspect that, rather than the comic being graded sloppily, it was encapsulated and labeled sloppily, and was either sealed with the wrong grade on the label, or mixed up/switched out for another copy that was truly high grade.

One wonders if there might not be shenanigans going on with the encapsulation/labeling crew.  We've seen multiple examples of these massive mis-grades lately - are the high grades being substituted by lower grade examples in an unscrupulous practice, like PGX was caught doing years ago?  I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but think the company should certainly look into the possibility.  What other plausible explanation is there for slabs leaving the CGC facility with 9.6 and 9.8 labels encapsulated with comics plainly in the VF- to VF/NM grade range?

 

Edited February 4 by namisgr

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/4/2024 at 3:40 AM, namisgr said:

Thanks for the focus on this part of the filing.

It says the perp admitted to stealing 23 comics.  It remains possible that the true number is actually larger.  And of the 23 admittedly stolen, the perp had seven of them encapsulated with labels sporting higher grades that were duplicated from other graded examples - the true number of swaps with bogus grades is, then, a minimum of seven.

Over the past couple of years, there have been so many threads on the boards about encapsulated books that don't look anything like they're deserving of the assigned grades.  With the outsider 'swap-gate' and insider 'swap-gate' now providing concrete examples of slabbed books being labelled in ways that have nothing to do with their actual grades and conditions, it becomes increasingly challenging for collectors of slabbed books and venues selling them to identify comics that have been innocently overgraded, a normal part of the high volume, subjective, imperfect, and sometimes rushed nature of the third party grading process, from those that may be sporting labels that are fraudulent and have nothing to do with actual condition and grade of the slabbed comic.

Here's a post of mine from one of those threads from 2022 wondering whether there might be a problem within CGC that could explain some of these instances of gross overgrading:

 

The more I think about it, the insider “shenanigans” is giving me quite a bit of heartburn. A book that may have only left the original owner’s possession to be sent to cgc for grading and authentication could have been swapped or stolen by someone, at the very company you trust to authenticate and grade, due to what appears to be a severe lack of internal controls. 

I know these new lawsuits show that CGC isn’t messing around with anyone who tries to misrepresent their brand and grade, which they definitely should do. However, the trust the community has in CGC is important and imperative to its success.

CGC really needs to do some outreach to the community now. At the very least, issue a statement apologizing and highlighting the changes they are making as a result of what has transpired due its lack of internal controls.

Tommy Boy taught us a that customer wants a guarantee on the box to feel warm and confident inside. It also taught us that I could take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, and all you’d have a guaranteed piece of sh… CGC would be wise to assure the community, in its own words, that comic collectors aren’t buying the latter when choosing their services or slabs. 

Edited February 4 by awakeintheashes

[DR.X]

On 2/4/2024 at 2:40 AM, namisgr said:

It says the perp admitted to stealing 23 comics.  It remains possible that the true number is actually larger. 

This....................what a sad state for our hobby. I'm starting to actually feel good about liquidating my F.F.'s and other parts of my collection.

[PopKulture]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:15 AM, DR.X said:

This....................what a sad state for our hobby. I'm starting to actually feel good about liquidating my F.F.'s and other parts of my collection.

That is sad: nobody should be made to feel good about liquidating their FF’s…  

Still, as your thread proved, it’s useful to be able to accurately represent and grade books yourself, and you should have no problem moving them at fair prices. 

[DR.X]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:21 AM, PopKulture said:

That is sad: nobody should be made to feel good about liquidating their FF’s…  

Still, as your thread proved, it’s useful to be able to accurately represent and grade books yourself, and you should have no problem moving them at fair prices. 

well, I've been collecting for over 50 years, and it's time to thin things down anyway. I can't take it to the grave. I want to get my collection down to a point where I'm not lugging dozens of boxes around. I still have books I want to own and read, and will pursue those  when I have some time.

and like I have said before, I have some really nice raw key books that I would love to get slabbed, but no way with this garbage going on the last few years. they look pretty good in a Mylite, packed away from human eyes. LOL

[jas1vans]

On 2/4/2024 at 2:40 AM, namisgr said:

Thanks for the focus on this part of the filing.

It says the perp admitted to stealing 23 comics.  It remains possible that the true number is actually larger.  And of the 23 admittedly stolen, the perp had seven of them encapsulated with labels sporting higher grades that were duplicated from other graded examples - the true number of swaps with bogus grades is, then, a minimum of seven.

 

I read it as CGC can prove beyond all doubt that he stole 23 comics, not that he only stole 23.

[Number 6]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:30 PM, ttfitz said:

I think you have your answer right here in this thread, a page higher:

 

I saw that post. I also saw the two posts over in the label-swap thread from members who were contemplating making big CGC purchases but are now holding off. I also saw the post (don’t remember which thread) of a seller getting panicked questions from potential buyers about whether the slabs he was offering were tampered with. 
 

But back to the post you quoted:  so that’s proof that CGC has created an infallible business for which no scandal will take down…even though mikenyc’s previous post regarding corporate involvement actually suggests there will continue to more such scandals. 
 

It’s been noted before that comic collectors - and CGC comic collectors in particular - tend to behave like “crack-addicts”.  So the way CGC is enabled to continue this Teflon business model is because collectors behave in a way that’s characteristic of someone who acts against their own best interests and better judgement?  Is that type of relationship between business and customer really indefinitely sustainable?

 

Incidentally, I know what the answers to my questions are….or at least, what the answers should be.  
 

I just wondered if the collectors and flippers who are whistling past a graveyard realize it and would be honest about it. 

[Stefan_W]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:37 AM, Number 6 said:

Incidentally, I know what the answers to my questions are….or at least, what the answers should be.  
 

I just wondered if the collectors and flippers who are whistling past a graveyard realize it and would be honest about it. 

Since we are talking about being honest about things, I have read all of the posts in both threads about comic scams and there are two things I would note as being very true.

First, different people will have different perspectives on how the scandal impacts them. We are all situated in our own realities, and for some the sky is falling, for others things go on as usual, and a lot of people are somewhere in between.

Second, despite the first point I mentioned there never seems to be a shortage of people who are condescending enough to take an attitude that basically reduces to: "if you don't believe what I believe, which is obviously the TRUTH and only reality that matters, you are a corporate shill/dishonest with yourself/kidding yourself about where things are heading/not paying enough attention/getting the facts wrong/etc etc etc." 

If pushed to expand a bit, some other things I know to be true are that CGC will continue onwards as the gold standard for comic grading, people will continue to send their comics in to CGC, and although impacts of the scams will be felt the hobby will certainly go on. 

[mikenyc]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:37 AM, Number 6 said:

I just wondered if the collectors and flippers who are whistling past a graveyard realize it and would be honest about it. 

You’re not wrong and you’re not right. Everyone who is involved in the hobby, from collectors to sellers, realize that these incidents that occur are problematic. But there has to be some perspective when you look at the scope of the problem. How pervasive is the scam and where does the blame ultimately lie. In the case of the individual who is swapping out books after purchasing them, he is your high end thief. Using creative ways to cheat the system, from figuring out a way to maximize his fraud with what books and the kinds of books, i .e. newsstands, to achieving a way to beat the case protection. This kind of fraud is to be expected in any industry where there are high dollar collectibles being bought and sold; wine, art, etc. I’m sure there are many others doing similar things when you consider the amount of graded books being sold. That said, the issue isn’t the scam but rather the scammer exploiting CGC’s reholder program right under their noses. That is a failure of internal systems at CGC.
 

Employees stealing and manipulating processes from the inside of a company isn’t unique, but it does expose the lax security measures of CGC when storing books and or following a chain of command from when the books are received, which is a bigger problem. So how bad is it really? How many employees are doing what the two exposed employees were doing? This is what will come out going forward. I’m assuming the investigation from 3rd party companies is what ultimately led to uncovering what the accused employees were doing. 

The size of CGC, the numbers of books being graded, the other categories of collectibles now being graded and the need for new employees and systems to support that growth allow for these issues to arise. Will CGC recognize that consumer trust in the brand is what is required for continuing and sustainable growth? Can they contain these problems and institute changes to fix them? It remains to be seen. 

The all knowing Dr. Suess said it best, “Business is business and business must grow, regardless of crummies in tummies you know”
 

 

Edited February 4 by mikenyc
Spelling still a problem