The JSA acquisition is going to be a game changer for Signed non witnessed books 4 4

[DELTA 62]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:07 AM, William-James88 said:

I know for a fact that this sig below wasnt supervised by CGC. Eastman appeared at a local show which had 0 CGC presence. A local comic store owner applied to be a witness and got approved and had Eastman to sign a bunch privately, away from the crowd.
While there is 0 incentive to forge Eastman’s sig when he’s right there, all I can do is take their word for it. Could be that they missed or forgot a book and thus forged a sig among the others sent to CGC.

unlikely, but there’s no proof one way or another. CGC wasnt there, CGC didnt witness anything, they didn't supervise jack. They are simply taking the word of someone who is bringing in more business for them. And that gives me this nice yellow label book that makes it look like an official CGC witnessed sig.

 

As we saw with the recent scandal, this whole CGC thing is merely trust based, and there could always be people abusing that system.
 

 

What you described above is not how CGC Signature Series works let alone how CGC witnesses work.  First of all, CGC Signature Series doesn't have to be at every con for a book to qualify for the yellow label / Signature Series.  That's why they have a network of approved CGC Signature Series facilitators that work various cons / private signings.  A facilitator, however, can't witness the signatures themselves - that's the role and literal job of the approved CGC witness.  A facilitator has to have an approved CGC witness work with them per event.  A CGC witness just doesn't get approved to witness an event without working with a facilitator or CGC themselves (if they are at the event).  If the Eastman books were signed privately away from the crowd, that's fine as long as the approved CGC witness was present for the signing and that there was an approved CGC Signature Series facilitator working that event.  That scenario isn't uncommon.  But if CGC's Signature Series process wasn't followed for the book you posted, then CGC Signature Series needs to investigate what happened.  

For my $.02, I don't feel any signatures outside of CGC Signature Series should get the yellow label.  In their posting, CGC specifically distinguished the difference between JSA authentication and CGC Signature Series - in other words, they made a point to remind everyone which one is witnessed directly and which one is not.  One shouldn't have to look at the fine print on a yellow label to figure out if it was JSA authentication or not.  The book's label color itself should tell you right off the bat what the book is all about.  In my humble opinion, adding JSA authentication to the yellow label series at minimum dilutes the integrity of the yellow label.  JSA authentication should get its own label color.  

[DELTA 62]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:29 AM, DELTA 62 said:

What you described above is not how CGC Signature Series works let alone how CGC witnesses work.  First of all, CGC Signature Series doesn't have to be at every con for a book to qualify for the yellow label / Signature Series.  That's why they have a network of approved CGC Signature Series facilitators that work various cons / private signings.  A facilitator, however, can't witness the signatures themselves - that's the role and literal job of the approved CGC witness.  A facilitator has to have an approved CGC witness work with them per event.  A CGC witness just doesn't get approved to witness an event without working with a facilitator or CGC themselves (if they are at the event).  If the Eastman books were signed privately away from the crowd, that's fine as long as the approved CGC witness was present for the signing and that there was an approved CGC Signature Series facilitator working that event.  That scenario isn't uncommon.  But if CGC's Signature Series process wasn't followed for the book you posted, then CGC Signature Series needs to investigate what happened.  

For my $.02, I don't feel any signatures outside of CGC Signature Series should get the yellow label.  In their posting, CGC specifically distinguished the difference between JSA authentication and CGC Signature Series - in other words, they made a point to remind everyone which one is witnessed directly and which one is not.  One shouldn't have to look at the fine print on a yellow label to figure out if it was JSA authentication or not.  The book's label color itself should tell you right off the bat what the book is all about.  In my humble opinion, adding JSA authentication to the yellow label series at minimum dilutes the integrity of the yellow label.  JSA authentication should get its own label color.  

And if I recall correctly, Kevin Eastman has people on his staff that are CGC approved facilitator and witnesses.

[NewWorldOrder]

You are paying JSA (just like Voldemort) for a best guess signature authenticity evaluation on a non-witness signature after the fact in which many days, years, or decades have passed. 

Number one reason for CGC to do this is to try to put Voldemort out of business and slowly funnel all the normal submissions from them to CGC, which this is the first step.  Next and last step is for CGC to pull a WWE and buy WCW then all comics will now be graded by the CGC again. (insert evil laugh)

CGC actually witnessed Yellow labels will more than likely still command higher prices at auction then JSA verified Yellow Labels.  However JSA verified yellow labels will still do way better  at auction than their old CGC Green Qualified labels (once people resubmit them) and will command higher prices than the verified labels from Voldemort.

I think we can all agree if you can choose between lets say:

A. Spawn #1 CGC 9.8 WP signed by Todd McFarlane (CGC witness)

B. Spawn #1 CGC 9.8 WP signed by Todd McFarlane (JSA Verified)

A will usually be the preferred choice to spend your money on

JSA's will do well when it comes to John Byrne, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, etc..

[DougC]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:01 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I think we can all agree if you can choose between lets say:

A. Spawn #1 CGC 9.8 WP signed by Todd McFarlane (CGC witness)

B. Spawn #1 CGC 9.8 WP signed by Todd McFarlane (JSA Verified)

A will usually be the preferred choice to spend your money on

JSA's will do well when it comes to John Byrne, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, etc..

I believe this will hold true in most cases but there are a small number of us that will pick B "if" (and this is a big if) the book has Todds older signature with the spider stamp, the same with many older signatures (Jim Lee, Fabian Nicieza, Stan Lee's more literate 70's auto) prior to the proliferation of mass signing that shortened a number of artist signatures into quick squiggles.

[DocGo]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:03 PM, William-James88 said:

Thats an excellent point, the note on the label would be enough to distinguish one from the other .

I completely disagree with this. A little note on the label that says “authenticated” against a yellow background isn’t nearly enough and will create confusion. If only an “authenticated” signature exists on a book, the entire label should be a different color. The SS service needs to be distinct.

[Skippeydoo]

I mean, if you have a book where one name was witnessed and another name was not, they do the yellow/green label that is pretty much yellow label with a green stripe to differentiate. Feel like for verified they could do a yellow label with a red stripe, so it's obvious that it's not a total witness signed book. And if its just verified then do a full red label. 

[William-James88]

On 3/27/2024 at 11:53 AM, DELTA 62 said:

And if I recall correctly, Kevin Eastman has people on his staff that are CGC approved facilitator and witnesses.

ok that makes sense. So half of what's necessary for a witnessed sig could have come from Kevin's team while the other half came from the shop owner I dealt with. I mean, neither are people who work for CGC, which was my main point. But I guess that doesn't matter since what's necessary is the approval from CGC, not their direct presence.

Edited March 27 by William-James88

[William-James88]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:01 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

However JSA verified yellow labels will still do way better  at auction than their old CGC Green Qualified labels (once people resubmit them) and will command higher prices than the verified labels from Voldemort.

 

They will at least remove the stigma green labels had. Like I don't know if a JSA yellow label would command more than a universal label, but it wouldn't command less (I'm assuming that's the case with green labels these days, with ASM 300 for instance).

[William-James88]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:45 PM, DocGo said:

I completely disagree with this. A little note on the label that says “authenticated” against a yellow background isn’t nearly enough and will create confusion. If only an “authenticated” signature exists on a book, the entire label should be a different color. The SS service needs to be distinct.

While I get you not wanting that, I think this is what's gonna happen. CGC isn't spending all this money on an acquisition to make as little as possible from it. The way they get the most business from this is to create a service people will want to purchase and what people would want most is for their non witnessed sig books to be as marketable as a witnessed sig book. 

[DELTA 62]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:30 PM, William-James88 said:

ok that makes sense. So half of what's necessary for a witnessed sig could have come from Kevin's team while the other half came from the shop owner I dealt with. I mean, neither are people who work for CGC, which was my main point. But I guess that doesn't matter since what's necessary is the approval from CGC, not their direct presence.

CGC approved witnesses are paid for by CGC.  So, if you want to call that as people who work for CGC, that argument could be made.  

[Ryan.]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:01 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Number one reason for CGC to do this is to try to put Voldemort out of business

That may have been a motivating factor but one distinction that should be made is that CGC didn't buy JSA, CCG the umbrella corp bought JSA. Signature authentication won't be limited to just comics. This is likely more about expanding CCG's overall market share across all collectibles.

Edited March 27 by Ryan.

[William-James88]

On 3/27/2024 at 4:32 PM, DELTA 62 said:

CGC approved witnesses are paid for by CGC.  So, if you want to call that as people who work for CGC, that argument could be made.  

I’d call it outsourcing

Edited March 27 by William-James88

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:05 PM, Ryan. said:

That may have been a motivating factor but one distinction that should be made is that CGC didn't buy JSA, CCG the umbrella corp bought JSA. Signature authentication won't be limited to just comics. This is likely more about expanding CCG's overall market share across all collectibles.

Very interesting 🤔 indeed. I guess that there would be other umbrellas for that then.

In that case I have some signed fishing star signed cards  

Ah Texas.

That I do! 😁🤣

Edited March 28 by ADAMANTIUM

[thehumantorch]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:27 PM, Darthvader23 said:

oh yeah, i have 1000 comics with STAN LEE signatures on all of them( all of a sudden ). I swear they're legit, i was there when i signed , opps,  I mean -  i was there when stan signed my comics. I like how CGC back themselves with they're signature series, by having someone from CGC witness the signatures. Now, fake signatures is one of the biggest scams on the planet. You only have to watch 'pawn stars' to see how they authenticate signatures. Firstly, they look with a magnifying lens app on they're phone, to see if it's live ink.............Well, wouldn't all signatures have live ink, unless they're a stamp signature. And then, they try and match up the signature to a known signature. Thats it...........boom, you have been authenticated. What a farse. I also have Abrahim Lincoln's signature on this old bit of paper that my great grandfather was there for.( joke )........ I feel, they should keep the yellow header from CGC witnessed signatures, and have a pink header for ones for being non-witnessed. But in saying that, there are some comics in existence, that were known to been released with signatures, you only have to look at spawn #350 THANK YOU COVER- with T.M signature.....oh, and I wasnt joking about my 1000 stan lee signatures......LOL

I can't wait to get my Spawn #1 signed by George Washington authenticated.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:04 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Very interesting 🤔 indeed. I guess that there would be other umbrellas for that then.

In that case I have some signed fishing star signed cards  

Ah Texas.

That I do! 😁🤣

I'm rich!

On 3/27/2024 at 6:05 PM, Ryan. said:

That may have been a motivating factor but one distinction that should be made is that CGC didn't buy JSA, CCG the umbrella corp bought JSA. Signature authentication won't be limited to just comics. This is likely more about expanding CCG's overall market share across all collectibles.

 

[bobotski]

I have qualified green label Dynamic Forces Superman "signed by Siegel" and Batman "signed by Bob Kane" books that were already graded. Suppose I submit these (and assuming sigs are authenticated), will they go again through the regrading process, or will they honor the existing CGC grade. I assume the former, but would be interesting nevertheless since they already graded the book in the first place.

And yes, I think they should have a different color label for authenticated sigs (perhaps orangey yellow) and not just a notation or a stripe like the qualified yellows.

[DocGo]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:40 PM, William-James88 said:

While I get you not wanting that, I think this is what's gonna happen. CGC isn't spending all this money on an acquisition to make as little as possible from it. The way they get the most business from this is to create a service people will want to purchase and what people would want most is for their non witnessed sig books to be as marketable as a witnessed sig book. 

Would CGC make money by devaluing their own Signature Series yellow label? I think the opposite is true in the long run. I’m guessing that CGC makes more from SS than any of their other levels and an authentication service would only be a fraction of that take. Giving the two services the same colored label doesn’t seem logical to me.

[ignimbrite]

Sorry to extend the thread but I didn't feel my question warranted starting a new one. I am completed new to the entire concept of JSA and I wondered about sketch covers? I have a Frank Cho outrage cover that was (obviously) never slabbed. Does JSA authenticate the art or only the signature?

[austinhg]

On 4/11/2024 at 9:31 AM, ignimbrite said:

Sorry to extend the thread but I didn't feel my question warranted starting a new one. I am completed new to the entire concept of JSA and I wondered about sketch covers? I have a Frank Cho outrage cover that was (obviously) never slabbed. Does JSA authenticate the art or only the signature?

I've never used JSA for anything other than signed photos, so I'm not sure if they authenticate the art.(Their website also doesn't make it clear about anything other than signatures.)

I'm sure CGC will have more information on this when they announce more on the service this month.

[Mayor006]

It's already the 11th of April. Do we have any idea when this announcement will be made? Something tells me they are reading through these threads to make sure they have all the t's crossed and i's dotted.