Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[MAY1979]

On 8/1/2024 at 3:29 PM, MadGenius said:

I don't expect that CGC will announce "We've solved the problem!' Because they won't publicly acknowledge the problem exists for various reasons. The best we can hope for is they quietly fix it and people who get freshly graded or reholdered books back report the inner wells are no longer warping.

If it does occur in that manner then it will be slow.

Me personally I will no longer submit until I've read positive results for 6 full months.  My full stop on purchase of books slabbed after Nov 2023 is also in effect.  I will also keep my ears and eyes open to see how the Newport Beach contingent situation plays out and depending on "chatter" consider submitting with them mid-way in 2025.

I'm a collector, I do not sell Comic Books, I can be patient. 

P.S. This situation truly sucks at least if it was officially acknowledged I'd have a positive outlook for the future. 

Edited August 1 by MAR1979

[Ninja0215]

^^^THIS!^^^^ 100% 

[DaveSFU]

On 8/1/2024 at 2:24 PM, Stefan_W said:

I do a lot of crack and resubs, and when all of this started breaking and the threads started up I tried putting comics into the old wells and cases I had laying around waiting for recycling, and moving top and bottom up as much as they can within a case that is sealed up. With max bend that the hard outer case will allow (yes, I measured all of this) I saw that ticks that were already there could show more, but I did not see new damage. I also checked my own slabs and I had 2 with bends in the inner wells, but no damage I could see was done to the books. When I tested further I found it takes about double the amount of space that a case allows in order to create easily noticeable ticks. It was imperfect (e.g., I moved the ends up slowly which does not account for jarring that may occur if the bend happens quickly) but I still think it was a somewhat reasonable test with specific limitations. 

I expressed my opinions on this but I don't think they were well received so I mostly just stepped back from this discussion. People care about their comics and some were clearly upset, and I get all of that. Plus my trial was limited to about a dozen books so there may be variances that I did not see. So my take is everyone can figure things out on their own. And knowledge is power, so people can use cracked cases and test to their heart's desire if they want to. 

Here is a pic of me doing some testing when the discussion first came around

 

 

I think you are right that existing damage or weak points in the book will be made worse.  However i can say from my own experience here that books with no damage now have damage due to the bend.   So both scenarios are legit.    I had a wide sampling of 60 books from 1975-1991 that got subbed.   The older the book, the worse the damage.   All my 9.8s i got back from the 70s look like 9.0/9.2 now.   Where as books from 1990 might just have a small bend toward the middle of the book.   I didnt sub any moderns but i think given the fact that modern books probably are almost double the paper weight of a bronze age book, they arent going to be affected much.  

[Ninja0215]

Both of my submissions were modern books and I was planning on sending modern books. 

[Ninja0215]

For the record this doesn't give me hope or anything; that's just the way it is. 

[MAY1979]

Anyone else seeing what I'm seeing with the spine ticks?  If it is the situation the book will get worse. possibly before this month is over...

  Grade Date

07/01/2024

 

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[MAY1979]

@greggy you submit Metric Ton of book a month.  Look at the spines of your 2024 submissions. You are likely affected at similar clips as everyone who's posted here. 

I too figured it was one or 2 folks who were unlucky but after checking found my affected percentage is 90% and all books were purchased from different sellers

You may not want this to be true but it is...look at your 2024 graded books man... then consider revising your reaction to my previous posting.

Edited August 2 by MAR1979

[greggy]

Hey, that book may be overgraded but those breaks were already on that book. 

I look at all my books when they come in but I don't scrutinize everything cuz I don't see much issue with them.

I can be nice and check this submission when it comes on next Tuesday but I'm not going to do a detailed analysis of everything I get back cuz you or anyone want the information.

xoxo

gregg

[greggy]

Here, you can scrutinize this book for yourself. 

[Domo Arigato]

On 8/1/2024 at 10:29 PM, greggy said:

I can be nice and check this submission when it comes on next Tuesday but I'm not going to do a detailed analysis of everything I get back cuz you or anyone want the information.

If we tell you that you're going to do a detailed analysis of everything you get back......then you're going to do a detailed analysis of everything you get back, you simple-minded turd.

 

[greggy]

On 8/1/2024 at 8:46 PM, Domo Arigato said:

If we tell you that you're going to do a detailed analysis of everything you get back......then you're going to do a detailed analysis of everything you get back, you simple-minded turd.

 

Yes sir and may I have another?

[Timmay]

On 8/1/2024 at 11:29 PM, greggy said:

Here, you can scrutinize this book for yourself. 

Junk

[TK2]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:51 PM, MAR1979 said:

If it does occur in that manner then it will be slow.

Me personally I will no longer submit until I've read positive results for 6 full months.  My full stop on purchase of books slabbed after Nov 2023 is also in effect.  I will also keep my ears and eyes open to see how the Newport Beach contingent situation plays out and depending on "chatter" consider submitting with them mid-way in 2025.

I'm a collector, I do not sell Comic Books, I can be patient. 

P.S. This situation truly sucks at least if it was officially acknowledged I'd have a positive outlook for the future. 

I think @MAR1979 sums up my position as well.

I feel I have been stuck with CGC due to the excellent signings they have had over the last few years.  However the quality of the last three batches from CGC have all had warped inner wells, including one with a 'full smile' and associated spine tics. 

I realise that the only way to have an impact is financially as otherwise this will continue to be ignored.  I will stop my submissions until this is resolved.

"I'm a collector, I do not sell Comic Books, I can be patient."

 

[DanJD]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:51 AM, TK2 said:

I think @MAR1979 sums up my position as well.

I feel I have been stuck with CGC due to the excellent signings they have had over the last few years.  However the quality of the last three batches from CGC have all had warped inner wells, including one with a 'full smile' and associated spine tics. 

I realise that the only way to have an impact is financially as otherwise this will continue to be ignored.  I will stop my submissions until this is resolved.

"I'm a collector, I do not sell Comic Books, I can be patient."

 

I have seen several posts about this on other social media sites as well. The amount of people that deny this is a problem or simply saw the damage as an acceptable level in high grades astonishes me.  Those that defend it seem to be people that have huge submission volumes that are flipped as sales.  I am not sure, but there might be some financial interest in those cases to keep the train moving.

My Wolverine LS 1 was only my second submission and first SS event.  I was very excited about getting it back and wasn’t even concerned about the grade drop from a 9.8 to a 9.6.  The first book I sent in earlier this year was a graded 5.0 Avengers 8 that I had cracked, cleaned and pressed, and then I resubmitted.  It came back a 4.5.  That too is warped in the well, but at that grade, it probably doesn’t matter.  So I am 2 for 2 with bad grading outcomes and inner well damage.  I guess I’ll just be a buyer and collector and stay out of the submission game.  I have decided to simply not buy graded books online for the time being.  Shows, Cons and local stores are the way for me until this is resolved.  

[Stefan_W]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:33 AM, DanJD said:

I have seen several posts about this on other social media sites as well. The amount of people that deny this is a problem or simply saw the damage as an acceptable level in high grades astonishes me.  Those that defend it seem to be people that have huge submission volumes that are flipped as sales.  I am not sure, but there might be some financial interest in those cases to keep the train moving.

Another way to look at this is the people who see and submit the most books are not concerned, or at least not concerned in the same ways that you are. Trust me, everyone checks books and cases carefully when they come back from CGC. Keep in mind that dealers have to deal with expensive returns if the book inside the case is not what is seen in the cert photo and stuff like that. I am not a big volume dealer, but I do sell books and I can and do send books back on Mechanical Errors when something is damaged. I am sure people who are big dealers are doing exactly the same. 

However, if there is no visible damage to the book and/or case they just move on. If someone who sends in hundreds or thousands of books was seeing a bunch of damage to their books after grading you can bet they would be jumping up and down in anger and sending back piles of MEs.  

I'm sorry that your first experiences with grading worked out badly for you. I'd encourage you though to consider that maybe there aren't sinister motives (or some sort comic cabal among dealers) behind it just because people are not all agreeing with you - some people may simply not be experiencing what you experienced. 

Edited August 2 by Stefan_W

[MAY1979]

^how many check books through side of slab... not many - I know i did not and was shocked and disgusted with 90 %  of my 2024 graded 9.8s when I did. 

Again all mine were purchased from different sellers making it a mathematical impossibility for it to be bad luck.

Damage to the books will increase as long as they remain in the warped wells.

Newport Beach is approaching

[DanJD]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:25 AM, Stefan_W said:

Another way to look at this is the people who see and submit the most books are not concerned, or at least not concerned in the same ways that you are. Trust me, everyone checks books and cases carefully when they come back from CGC. Keep in mind that dealers have to deal with expensive returns if the book inside the case is not what is seen in the cert photo and stuff like that. I am not a big volume dealer, but I do sell books and I can and do send books back on Mechanical Errors when something is damaged. I am sure people who are big dealers are doing exactly the same. 

However, if there is no visible damage to the book and/or case they just move on. If someone who sends in hundreds or thousands of books was seeing a bunch of damage to their books after grading you can bet they would be jumping up and down in anger and sending back piles of MEs.  

I'm sorry that your first experiences with grading worked out badly for you. I'd encourage you though to consider that maybe there aren't sinister motives (or some sort comic cabal among dealers) behind it just because people are not all agreeing with you - some people may simply not be experiencing what you experienced. 

Maybe.  I honestly don’t care what others do with their books.  My eyes are all I need to realize this is not ok.  What I am starting to learn from this though is sellers tend to care about grades and collectors care about the condition of the book and preserving that condition for the long term.  One looks at this situation differently than the other.  These posts I feel were to make people aware of the possibility of further damage from an undisputed warp in the well.  The damage is not consistent, but an unnatural curve seems to be.  I may be somewhat new to this, but a C shaped comic is far from normal.  Either way, I wish you the best of luck with your hobby.

[DaveSFU]

On 8/2/2024 at 8:34 AM, MAR1979 said:

^how many check books through side of slab... not many - I know i did not and was shocked and disgusted with 90 %  of my 2024 graded 9.8s when I did. 

Again all mine were purchased from different sellers making it a mathematical impossibility for it to be bad luck.

Damage to the books will increase as long as they remain in the warped wells.

Newport Beach is approaching

I agree.  Most people who get their books back do not go over the slab with a fine tooth comb.   They look at the grade in the corner and thats that.      Having had many issues in the past with damaged books or cracked cases, ive learned not to do that.    Even with this warped well issue, the first 10 books i got back from the Wolverine signing i thought they just hadn't been pressed properly so i sent them back to CCS,  i never thought to check the slab from the side and look for a curve.  I've subbed probably 5000 books in my lifetime and this was a new one for me

[Stefan_W]

On 8/2/2024 at 9:51 AM, DaveSFU said:

I agree.  Most people who get their books back do not go over the slab with a fine tooth comb.   They look at the grade in the corner and thats that.      

Well, I for one am extremely happy that you are here letting us know how most people in the hobby conduct their business. 

Edited August 2 by Stefan_W

[MAY1979]

On 8/2/2024 at 11:09 AM, Stefan_W said:

Well, I for one am extremely happy that you are here letting us know how most people in the hobby conduct their business. 

Based on the amount of 9.8 books i received with badly crushed backs in the past 6 months it does appear to be the way many including CLink and suprisingly MCS conducts their business. 

I will say at least with MCS they are Total Pros and returns are easy. Clink too but getting them on the phone presents challenges due to their tiny staff. eBay is hit or miss hassle depending on seller. 

I've shown some examples of the inner well notches causing damage to comics earlier in this thread. Damage is in exact shape of the notches. 2nd Gen slabs has nice flat inner well tops and bottoms so was not an issue.

If respected folks in the hobby are missing crushed bottoms or tops of 9.8 labelled books, then logically they certainly will not take a fair amount of extra time to view sides of slabs to check for curved or wavy inner wells. Wells that in short amounts of time after slabbing will damage standard size comics.

 

Edited August 2 by MAR1979