Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[Yorick]

I took some photos of the Heavy Metal magazine I won, and I think that the curves are visible.

This is only occurring on the heat formed back-side of the inner well.  This is looking like a materials issue.

The whole center of the back well is bowl shaped.  Due to that irregularity, I also incur a pinched sonic seal corner...

See those ripples in the light reflection?

[Iconic1s]

On 8/31/2024 at 12:12 PM, Iconic1s said:

2: Perhaps the plastic of the inner well is unevenly heated during encapsulation / ultrasonic welding and is flat at that point, but it is then removed from the jig* too soon and allowed to cool at room temp, at that point due to the lack of uniform heating / cooling it warps itself into that bowl type shape all the smart guys keep talking about.

I should have included that MAYBE the intensity of the “heat” / ultrasonic welder was increased to put more books through encapsulation quicker (rather than adding more machines / people).  Increased heat in isolated points on the inner well may be what causes the uneven cooling and warping… increased throughput would explain the increased heat / warping more recently. Just a guess!

Edited August 31 by Iconic1s
Typo

[Yorick]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:19 AM, Iconic1s said:

I should have included that MAYBE the intensity of the “heat” / ultrasonic welder was increased to put more books through encapsulation quicker (rather than adding more machines / people).  Increased heat in isolated points on the inner well may be what causes the uneven cooling and warping.  Just a guess!

There are two layers of some material on the inner well.  There is the gutter side, and then a flat sheet that seals onto the formed "gutter" side.  The comic fits into the depression of the gutter side (sometimes with an added wedge), and the other sheet lays flat over it before it's sonic welded.

The "gutter" inner well is a heat formed sheet by vacuum forming (a process of heating material to a soft malleable form and then forcing it onto a mold through vacuum).  The other flat side of matching material is not subject to heat (thermoforming).  This forming process is NOT done at CGC during encapsulation.

The CGC encapsulation department would take these various pre-formed elements, put the comic inside, and sonic weld the edges.

I'll guess that CGC is using a different material or a different supplier for the inner wells.

[Iconic1s]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:38 PM, Yorick said:

There are two layers of some material on the inner well.  There is the gutter side, and then a flat sheet that seals onto the formed "gutter" side.  The comic fits into the depression of the gutter side (sometimes with an added wedge), and the other sheet lays flat over it before it's sonic welded.

The "gutter" inner well is a heat formed sheet by vacuum forming (a process of heating material to a soft malleable form and then forcing it onto a mold through vacuum).  The other flat side of matching material is not subject to heat (thermoforming).  This forming process is NOT done at CGC during encapsulation.

The CGC encapsulation department would take these various pre-formed elements, put the comic inside, and sonic weld the edges.

I'll guess that CGC is using a different material or a different supplier for the inner wells.

Yes, that is why I think they are probably being too aggressive with their rate of encapsulation.  Video below at around 25 seconds starts discussing the heat / process.

I simply think they are heating specific parts (not the whole inner well) up and then removing the welded pieces (inner well) from the jig before they cool.  Without anything holding their shape, the plastic deforms and warps because different (localized) parts are at different temps.

I don’t think it’s inferior materials or anything like that, I think it’s a change to their process (speed over quality) that is causing this.

P.S. yes I know video uses metal as the example but plastics should’t be effected much differently (heat, etc.)

Edited August 31 by Iconic1s

[lollyclown]

On 5/15/2024 at 8:27 AM, CGC Mike said:

@LordRahl  CGC identified a batch of inner wells that were warped and removed from production, but it appears that these got through. Please send the affected books back via Mechanical Error and they’ll be taken care of.

So this explanation aged "well". How exactly do you take care of spine ticks?

Edited August 31 by lollyclown

[MAY1979]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:12 PM, lollyclown said:

So this explanation aged "well". How exactly do you take care of spine ticks?

The Explanation changed to Bends and Color Breaking spine ticks are normal for a 9.8 - you know the type of defects that when permitted in high grade made PGX irrelevant!

 

 

 

Edited August 31 by MAY1979

[lollyclown]

I'm just really curious what would happen if say, the book that I had signed got sent back in to get a signature added to it, and now that it has seven spine ticks, am I going to get a grade drop because of damage they caused or will they honor that original grade because the damage that's now on the book is due to their /gestures broadly/

 

[VintageComics]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:18 PM, Iconic1s said:

Yes, that is why I think they are probably being too aggressive with their rate of encapsulation.  Video below at around 25 seconds starts discussing the heat / process.

I simply think they are heating specific parts (not the whole inner well) up and then removing the welded pieces (inner well) from the jig before they cool.  Without anything holding their shape, the plastic deforms and warps because different (localized) parts are at different temps.

I don’t think it’s inferior materials or anything like that, I think it’s a change to their process (speed over quality) that is causing this.

P.S. yes I know video uses metal as the example but plastics should’t be effected much differently (heat, etc.)

All the other explanations (especially that high volume submitters isn't affected ) are just guesses. 

This is the most logical explanation. 

[Stefan_W]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:18 PM, Iconic1s said:

Yes, that is why I think they are probably being too aggressive with their rate of encapsulation.  Video below at around 25 seconds starts discussing the heat / process.

I simply think they are heating specific parts (not the whole inner well) up and then removing the welded pieces (inner well) from the jig before they cool.  Without anything holding their shape, the plastic deforms and warps because different (localized) parts are at different temps.

I don’t think it’s inferior materials or anything like that, I think it’s a change to their process (speed over quality) that is causing this.

P.S. yes I know video uses metal as the example but plastics should’t be effected much differently (heat, etc.)

This is great, thanks for sharing!

The only part that that still does not fit with this explanation is the lack of speed with which CGC addressed the issue. If it was simply a matter of rate of encapsulation they could have just slowed it back down immediately once people were showing damage to books. I am not saying this explanation is wrong (I have no way of knowing), but I was gravitating toward things that would take weeks to change over those that could be shifted immediately as soon as the issues are known. 

[Iconic1s]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:19 PM, VintageComics said:

All the other explanations (especially that high volume submitters isn't affected ) are just guesses. 

This is the most logical explanation. 

You know, the more I think about this… IF it really is due to warping while the plastic cools (outside the jig) it could also be being caused by something as non-nefarious as the encapsulation room being cooler than it was previously… if the ambient temp was lowered significantly (to make employees comfortable for example) that may be effecting how the plastic cools 

Maybe the move to the new facility had something to do with this if so?

Edited August 31 by Iconic1s

[MAY1979]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:31 PM, Iconic1s said:

You know, the more I think about this… IF it really is due to warping while the plastic cools (outside the jig) it could also be being caused by something as non-nefarious as the encapsulation room being cooler than it was previously… if the ambient temp was lowered significantly (to make employees comfortable for example) that may be effecting how the plastic cools 

Maybe the move to the new facility??

How about same space as pre-1975 submissions?

The official message is Banana Bending and associated Damage is "normal", what is their incentive to investigate?

 

Edited August 31 by MAY1979

[Iconic1s]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:34 PM, MAY1979 said:

How about same space as pre-1975 submissions?

If the official message is Banana Bending and associated Damage is "normal", then what is their incentive to investigate?

 

I’m just guessing at what could be warping the inner wells.

As far as incentive to investigate goes, I think we agree that as long as people keep submitting, there really is none.  This is why I’m done submitting.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of this though!!

[VintageComics]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:31 PM, Iconic1s said:

You know, the more I think about this… IF it really is due to warping while the plastic cools (outside the jig) it could also be being caused by something as non-nefarious as the encapsulation room being cooler than it was previously… if the ambient temp was lowered significantly (to make employees comfortable for example) that may be effecting how the plastic cools 

Maybe the move to the new facility had something to do with this if so?

As a tech guy, I tend to think along these lines as well, trying to take in all factors including environmental, but the easiest logic to me is simply trying to speed things up to accomodate turnaround times. 

I haven't followed this thread closely but if there are times when CGC was extra busy and they just rushed the grading process a bit to get books out on time, this could be the result.

Time is usually the single greatest factor in quality control issues in any company. 

[JJordanART]

This is my hulk 181 signed by Roy Thomas and Glynis Oliver for the wolvie 50th on my perfectly level press. It graded a 6.0, but looks worse than the 5.5 I sent in at. Yup, paid for pressing too <sigh>.  Cgc is doing nothing but “within tolerance”. I’ve been trading out my blue label books at cons for raws (heck, that look better more often than not) and have felt relief. I seriously thought I’d regret it…but nope. The way cgc gave me the same bs run around as others on a book worth quite a bit (at least to me), and sentimental (given by a late buddy). Cgc can get bent…as well as my book

[lollyclown]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:31 PM, Iconic1s said:

You know, the more I think about this… IF it really is due to warping while the plastic cools (outside the jig) it could also be being caused by something as non-nefarious as the encapsulation room being cooler than it was previously… if the ambient temp was lowered significantly (to make employees comfortable for example) that may be effecting how the plastic cools 

Maybe the move to the new facility had something to do with this if so?

A company of this sort, who does what they do and have been for quite some time, would be aware of climate control for certain processes. 

For the sake of keeping it simple, if they turn the AC down to make employees more comfortable then it is still their fault, in fact it would be even worse than a more complicated technical error because climate control should be near the top of the checklist of things to be on top of.

I think the problem is just all around sloppiness and complacency because they think they're the only game in town. I mean this is a company where they just lost a 10 million defamation suit because their lead grader didn't understand the processes being used by a professional restoration company so he accused them of being fraudulent publicly. Even more absurd is, according to his LinkedIn page, he still works for them. With things like that, and I will say my own personal experience with a senior director in the company it seems like the rot is in the roots.

[bc]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:18 PM, Iconic1s said:

Yes, that is why I think they are probably being too aggressive with their rate of encapsulation.  Video below at around 25 seconds starts discussing the heat / process.

I simply think they are heating specific parts (not the whole inner well) up and then removing the welded pieces (inner well) from the jig before they cool.  Without anything holding their shape, the plastic deforms and warps because different (localized) parts are at different temps.

I don’t think it’s inferior materials or anything like that, I think it’s a change to their process (speed over quality) that is causing this.

P.S. yes I know video uses metal as the example but plastics should’t be effected much differently (heat, etc.)

I mentioned the same theory several pages back 

Pure speculation: Could it be that one of the encapsulation/ultrasonic welding machines isn't properly calibrated to handle the increased welding post swap-gate? That explains why not every submission is being impacted - it might be a station devoted to certain tiers.

-bc

[MAY1979]

On 8/31/2024 at 6:51 PM, bc said:

 

Pure speculation: Could it be that one of the encapsulation/ultrasonic welding machines isn't properly calibrated to handle the increased welding post swap-gate? That explains why not every submission is being impacted - it might be a station devoted to certain tiers.

-bc

IMHO Far more plausible if vice-versa.  Meaning 1 or 2 "good modern stations" with all others bad.

[Iconic1s]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:46 PM, lollyclown said:

A company of this sort, who does what they do and have been for quite some time, would be aware of climate control for certain processes. 

For the sake of keeping it simple, if they turn the AC down to make employees more comfortable then it is still their fault, in fact it would be even worse than a more complicated technical error because climate control should be near the top of the checklist of things to be on top of.

I think the problem is just all around sloppiness and complacency because they think they're the only game in town. I mean this is a company where they just lost a 10 million defamation suit because their lead grader didn't understand the processes being used by a professional restoration company so he accused them of being fraudulent publicly. Even more absurd is, according to his LinkedIn page, he still works for them. With things like that, and I will say my own personal experience with a senior director in the company it seems like the rot is in the roots.

Agreed!  I’m not making excuses for them… just riffing some theories 

As far as CGC being a company that should know better… I agree with you there too but to be honest, when have they ever really shown us that they DO know better, or consider things like this?  Not too often IMO (especially lately).

[lollyclown]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:51 PM, bc said:

I mentioned the same theory several pages back 

Pure speculation: Could it be that one of the encapsulation/ultrasonic welding machines isn't properly calibrated to handle the increased welding post swap-gate? That explains why not every submission is being impacted - it might be a station devoted to certain tiers.

-bc

If they are missing something being improperly calibrated for this many months, that's even worse. Machines of this sort should have basic calibration tests done on them on a routine basis.

[lollyclown]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:56 PM, Iconic1s said:

...when have they ever really shown us that they DO know better, or consider things like this?  Not too often IMO (especially lately).

This is probably one of the most valid points that has been raised here.