Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 23 23

[LordRahl]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:20 AM, MAY1979 said:

I dealt and known many comic dealers/sellers/flippers/speculators for 40 years, none of them have anywhere near that level of honesty. Wish I did know some that are, but I don't. I've heard they exist and while I'm sure that's plausible, again I've never met a single one who even borders on being honest.

Thus I ask again is it being oblivious? Sheer Ignorance?  Cognitive Dissonance?  or some combination thereof that these eBay sellers proudly exclaim "Newly Graded" or "New Slab" as if that is a positive thing.

 

P.S. Those involved with buying comics I've met who are honest, are limited to collectors only

A lot of people aren't on social media. The examples posted here of the books with obvious spine stress and creases in 9.8 books that are readily obvious is a small percentage of all of the bent books. The vast majority are only slightly bent and if you don't know to look for it, you most likely won't see it. All of that is a long winded answer of... I think it's sheer ignorance of there being a problem for a lot of people. Word is getting out but it's fresh enough that I don't think a large percentage is aware yet. Then there are also the deniers and the outright dishonest mixed in as well, but I believe that's a small percentage relative to the folks that just don't know there is a problem... yet.

[MAY1979]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:45 PM, LordRahl said:

A lot of people aren't on social media. The examples posted here of the books with obvious spine stress and creases in 9.8 books that are readily obvious is a small percentage of all of the bent books. The vast majority are only slightly bent and if you don't know to look for it, you most likely won't see it. All of that is a long winded answer of... I think it's sheer ignorance of there being a problem for a lot of people. Word is getting out but it's fresh enough that I don't think a large percentage is aware yet. Then there are also the deniers and the outright dishonest mixed in as well, but I believe that's a small percentage relative to the folks that just don't know there is a problem... yet.

YEP!

[MAY1979]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:38 PM, Collect Stuff said:

Perhaps they all are

[0r0d]

On 9/8/2024 at 7:53 PM, MAY1979 said:

Perhaps they all are

Of course they are, that's the normal and expected outcome of their encapsulation process according to CGC.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:45 PM, LordRahl said:

A lot of people aren't on social media. The examples posted here of the books with obvious spine stress and creases in 9.8 books that are readily obvious is a small percentage of all of the bent books. The vast majority are only slightly bent and if you don't know to look for it, you most likely won't see it. All of that is a long winded answer of... I think it's sheer ignorance of there being a problem for a lot of people. Word is getting out but it's fresh enough that I don't think a large percentage is aware yet. Then there are also the deniers and the outright dishonest mixed in as well, but I believe that's a small percentage relative to the folks that just don't know there is a problem... yet.

And when other people try to make people aware on social media, the shills for CGC shut them down. From a facebook group:

No way in hell that that's getting a 9.8 if submitted raw.

[HotKey]

[electricprune]

On 9/9/2024 at 12:57 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

And when other people try to make people aware on social media, the shills for CGC shut them down. From a facebook group:

No way in hell that that's getting a 9.8 if submitted raw.

CGC should start using some of these pics in their advertising. More people might submit if books like this are CGC 9.8s.

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

[DanJD]

On 9/8/2024 at 11:57 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

And when other people try to make people aware on social media, the shills for CGC shut them down. From a facebook group:

No way in hell that that's getting a 9.8 if submitted raw.

They turned off commenting on that post?  What a joke.  There are so many people that blindly defend this.  I will never understand.

Edited September 9 by DanJD

[wiparker824]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:23 AM, MAY1979 said:

  

You would think Sellers given their nature would not advertise the slabs are new and do whatever they can to draw attention away from that. Instead they boldly state they are newly graded.

  

 

Theres a large % of people who buy and sell comic books that don’t follow these boards or social media at all, or if they do follow social media they use it for family, friends, other interests and not CGC news. So, I’d guess most of these just don’t know.

Of the people who do know and are actively selling modern recently graded books there’s also going to be a % of those people who will have read CGC’s response that the bends are normal, not causing damage, and not an issue. So why then would it be a problem in their minds? I’m not saying I agree with this, but that’s the ramifications of CGC putting out such a message - some people genuinely will believe it.

Then there’s a small percentage that are aware, are selling recently graded books, and disagree with CGC’s statement and of those people some will list it with a disclaimer but also many won’t. But whether they do or don’t list it with a disclaimer I doubt they’d try to hide the year it was graded. Most of the time you can see the cert number on eBay and when you can’t I’d be worried they’re hiding a lot more than just the bend.

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/9/2024 at 8:36 AM, DanJD said:

They turned off commenting on that post?  What a joke.  There are so many people that blindly defend this.  I will never understand.

One of the admins had the audacity to comment on another users similar post that they should have pressed the book as it would have been a 9.9 without the spine tics as 9.8 are not perfect books (basically CGC's stance of all these spine tics are now totally acceptable for that grade) :P

Edited September 9 by Sauce Dog

[VinceVellCUSTOMS]

Im not sure on the rules again posting someone auction, but since im still waiting on my books to be looked over with sending back in. I been telling my friends all about this who some do buy some graded books and some been thinking, I was sent an auction from a friend if he thought he should snag the book. First thing is I looked at the number on the book and its 43XXXX and then I zoomed in the book even tho it's a 9,8 I can see a spine issue. So here is the pic I zoomed in on but I wont post the ebay auction. Im starting to see the same ticks that are on mine on random ebay auctions if you zoom in. 

So doesnt it look like its a spine issue here as well?

 

 

[DanJD]

On 9/9/2024 at 10:53 AM, VinceVellCUSTOMS said:

Im not sure on the rules again posting someone auction, but since im still waiting on my books to be looked over with sending back in. I been telling my friends all about this who some do buy some graded books and some been thinking, I was sent an auction from a friend if he thought he should snag the book. First thing is I looked at the number on the book and its 43XXXX and then I zoomed in the book even tho it's a 9,8 I can see a spine issue. So here is the pic I zoomed in on but I wont post the ebay auction. Im starting to see the same ticks that are on mine on random ebay auctions if you zoom in. 

So doesnt it look like its a spine issue here as well?

 

 

I have noticed that on many as well.  Some of them can just be bad grading too.  For the premium you pay for a 9.8, I personally refuse to accept the “those are acceptable in an 9.8” and “9.8s are not perfect” comments.  I am ok with a few small non-color breaking in a 9.8 that are not immediately noticeable, but any color break is immediately a no go for me.  If a 9.8 has color breaks, I prefer to buy a NM raw for a fraction of the cost.  

I actually started focusing my new buys on key silver age books in the 7.5-9.4 range.  Then I don’t have to worry about a lot of this and expect some damage.  I just buy the book based on my personal expectation of eye appeal.  If it’s a 9.8 book, I need to see it in person or have many up-close pictures of the corners and spine to be comfortable shelling out that premium.   
 

I honestly now use graded books for the purpose of making sure the book has not been restored/conserved, is complete, or has a witnessed/verified signature if signed.  I have learned from this inner well debacle not to blindly trust a grade which is sad considering that is the whole point of CGC and other grading companies.

All my personal preference and opinion…

[Stefan_W]

On 9/9/2024 at 11:53 AM, VinceVellCUSTOMS said:

Im not sure on the rules again posting someone auction, but since im still waiting on my books to be looked over with sending back in. I been telling my friends all about this who some do buy some graded books and some been thinking, I was sent an auction from a friend if he thought he should snag the book. First thing is I looked at the number on the book and its 43XXXX and then I zoomed in the book even tho it's a 9,8 I can see a spine issue. So here is the pic I zoomed in on but I wont post the ebay auction. Im starting to see the same ticks that are on mine on random ebay auctions if you zoom in. 

So doesnt it look like its a spine issue here as well?

 

 

I'd be cautious about assuming every tick is caused by the recent issues at CGC without having before and after pictures of the book. This one looks like it could fall into what is allowable for a 9.8.

[lostboys]

9.4 NM should be in "brand new, off the shelf" condition

9.6 NM+ should be damn near perfect

9.8 NM++ (?) should be damn near-er perfect

9.9 NM +++ (?) should be damn near-est perfect

10.0 MINT Should be perfect (well, it may have a slight miswrap)

So what is a 10 with a perfect wrap?

 

Mind boggling

[speedcake]

On 9/9/2024 at 12:57 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

And when other people try to make people aware on social media, the shills for CGC shut them down. From a facebook group:

No way in hell that that's getting a 9.8 if submitted raw.

I left that group over this post and the replies to it.  Just don't care to be a part of a community so clearly dishonest. 

[0r0d]

Here are the results of my conversation with CGC customer service:

I sent them photos of 3 damaged books (all 9.8 from prescreen, all went in with ZERO spine damage).  The worst one now has a color-break and bend that measures 1/4".  But, all came back bent and all had spine damage.

First response from CGC: The told me the following:

Quote

We are aware of the reports that some inner wells exhibit a curve, and while we have not seen any impact to the condition of encapsulated books, we take any concerns about the quality and integrity of our holders seriously.

There you go, they dont claim to have even seen ANY impact to the condition of books.

Quote

Our team has reviewed the images provided, and want to advise that a small stress line, like in the pictures provided, is acceptable for a book graded as a 9.8, and will only prevent the submission from grading as a 9.9 or higher. 

According to CGC, the color-breaking tick that measures 1/4" is "acceptable" for a 9.8.

I'm sure if I crack it and send it back in, it will get a 9.8 again.  Right?  Right???

and

Quote

you are welcome to resubmit any of these books for Pressing and a ReGrade, however there isn't a guarantee that the grade will change.

Or, more like "there is no guarantee that the grade will stay the same".

I offered them 2 options that would be acceptable to me.  1) Press and re-holder the books at their expense and guarantee that the grade will not change.  and 2) I send them the books and they refund me their replacement cost FMV (for 9.8s) in exchange.   I think both are reasonable.  For #1, the books have clearly had zero damage done to the slabs after they left their facility.  The only damage is inside the slabs.  So if they graded them a 9.8 they should still be a 9.8, especially after pressing.  Any damage that would make them not a 9.8 is entirely their fault.  And #2 is also reasonable since I'd just like the value of the comic they sent me and I'm sending back.

Their reply:

They asked for images of the books prior to being sent in.  I dont have such images.  Also...

Quote

As well, you can resubmit these books with paid Pressing and Grading again

So I can pay... again... to have them graded, and possibly damaged again.

and finally:

Quote

If you believe the books were damaged or mishandled while with us causing any of these issues, you can also submit them back for Mechanical Error review

...

however please be aware that if we review the books with our team and find no issues or mishandling of these books, that they will be sent back as is, and you may be billed for the inbound and return shipping.

So I can resubmit for ME, even thought the spine damage will not qualify as ME and they have already said that a bent inner well is "normal" and "acceptable".  And of course once they reject the ME I will have to pay shipping both ways.  

There you go, customer service as its finest.  I can either suck it up and accept that I paid CGC to grade/slab my books and now they're damaged, or I can send them in to maybe get even more damaged and maybe, just maybe they can press them and keep the same grade... but I have to pay for it.

No offer to even refund the grading fees, or acknowledgement that there's any problem.  In fact, they claim that the books with ticks and bends (in one case 1/4" deep) are acceptable in a 9.8.  And, while I'm not an expert grader, I think that's just total B.S.  If I send that book in I'd expect maybe a 9.4 or 9.6 at highest.

And so now I really have nothing I can do except accept that I spent money and the result is some of my books are damaged, and I have to crack and press them myself to TRY to get them back into their original condition.  And then... I'm not sure what else.  Start using another grading service?  Why would I use CGC again when they wont even make up for their mistakes or even do the bare minimum of offering to refund the grading fees the few books they damaged? 

I just hope that this serves as a warning to others.  Submit books are your own risk.  If they come back damaged, you're on your own.

Attached photos of 1/4" spine tick/bend for reference.

[MAY1979]

On 9/9/2024 at 8:38 PM, 0r0d said:

Here are the results of my conversation with CGC customer service:

I sent them photos of 3 damaged books (all 9.8 from prescreen, all went in with ZERO spine damage).  The worst one now has a color-break and bend that measures 1/4".  But, all came back bent and all had spine damage.

First response from CGC: The told me the following:

There you go, they dont claim to have even seen ANY impact to the condition of books.

According to CGC, the color-breaking tick that measures 1/4" is "acceptable" for a 9.8.

I'm sure if I crack it and send it back in, it will get a 9.8 again.  Right?  Right???

and

Or, more like "there is no guarantee that the grade will stay the same".

I offered them 2 options that would be acceptable to me.  1) Press and re-holder the books at their expense and guarantee that the grade will not change.  and 2) I send them the books and they refund me their replacement cost FMV (for 9.8s) in exchange.   I think both are reasonable.  For #1, the books have clearly had zero damage done to the slabs after they left their facility.  The only damage is inside the slabs.  So if they graded them a 9.8 they should still be a 9.8, especially after pressing.  Any damage that would make them not a 9.8 is entirely their fault.  And #2 is also reasonable since I'd just like the value of the comic they sent me and I'm sending back.

Their reply:

They asked for images of the books prior to being sent in.  I dont have such images.  Also...

So I can pay... again... to have them graded, and possibly damaged again.

and finally:

So I can resubmit for ME, even thought the spine damage will not qualify as ME and they have already said that a bent inner well is "normal" and "acceptable".  And of course once they reject the ME I will have to pay shipping both ways.  

There you go, customer service as its finest.  I can either suck it up and accept that I paid CGC to grade/slab my books and now they're damaged, or I can send them in to maybe get even more damaged and maybe, just maybe they can press them and keep the same grade... but I have to pay for it.

No offer to even refund the grading fees, or acknowledgement that there's any problem.  In fact, they claim that the books with ticks and bends (in one case 1/4" deep) are acceptable in a 9.8.  And, while I'm not an expert grader, I think that's just total B.S.  If I send that book in I'd expect maybe a 9.4 or 9.6 at highest.

And so now I really have nothing I can do except accept that I spent money and the result is some of my books are damaged, and I have to crack and press them myself to TRY to get them back into their original condition.  And then... I'm not sure what else.  Start using another grading service?  Why would I use CGC again when they wont even make up for their mistakes or even do the bare minimum of offering to refund the grading fees the few books they damaged? 

I just hope that this serves as a warning to others.  Submit books are your own risk.  If they come back damaged, you're on your own.

Attached photos of 1/4" spine tick/bend for reference.

The Santa Ana winds can't blow east quickly enough for me. 

BTW: Their app scans the bar codes on the flips (their vernacular, which is cooler to say than labels) making registry input as easy as can be.

 

Edited September 10 by MAY1979

[DC#]

I went to a card show yesterday.   I don't really collect cards but have a few PSA slabs from my collection of childhood raw cards.   As I walked around - I started thinking about how much easier it would be to collect graded cards vs comics.    Don't really have the same issue of in-slab damage from dropping/handling/etc, no real degrading over time (there are just fewer elements to degrade), requires far less space to store, and on and on.     Especially for vintage card - it's just a simple small piece of cardboard.   I just wish I liked them as much.

A parallel thought over the past few months, amplified by this issue, is how much money I would have saved if I had been satisfied with just nice looking raws in mylar.   

[DanJD]

On 9/9/2024 at 8:31 PM, DC# said:

I went to a card show yesterday.   I don't really collect cards but have a few PSA slabs from my collection of childhood raw cards.   As I walked around - I started thinking about how much easier it would be to collect graded cards vs comics.    Don't really have the same issue of in-slab damage from dropping/handling/etc, no real degrading over time (there are just fewer elements to degrade), requires far less space to store, and on and on.     Especially for vintage card - it's just a simple small piece of cardboard.   I just wish I liked them as much.

A parallel thought over the past few months, amplified by this issue, is how much money I would have saved if I had been satisfied with just nice looking raws in mylar.   

I hear you and agree.  My recent raw purchases this past week that I put in new comic capsules.  Was a big stress relief compared to the ordeal dealing with CGC lately.