Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[*paull*]

I want to make sure I understand this.

 

The "first American comic book" :

 

1. Contains material by a creator who isn't an American

 

2. Contains material by a creator who most likely never visited America

 

3. Contains all re-printed material

 

4. Contains no material relating to, about, or for America or Americans

[Aman619]

yup. makes perfect sense to me!! : )

[selegue]

Certainly looks like hemp paper to me (or at least there was some around).

Might be a reprint though -- you should be about to see the wood grain of the teeth on a first print.

 

Jack

I didn't realize that Ditko's feet had such deep historical roots

 

[Timulty]

Obadiah Oldbuck

Perhaps The First Comic Book

Most Likely is not.

 

Just a little bit of Haiku to make everyone's evening.

[TeddieMercede]

Are we waiting for Showcase-4 (aka KK, Steve) to put up now that our gracious forumite gifflefunk has decidedly shut him down ? Or is he now going to come back and argue why the Lady and the Dog piece if not a comic book.

 

IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO PROVE THIS FURTHER...IT IS UP TO YOU TO PROVE IT WRONG. FIND ME A US COMIC BOOK DATED EARLIER THAN 1842 AND I WILL RETRACT EVERYTHING I SAID AND ADMIT THAT I WAS WRONG AND YOU WERE RIGHT.

[esquirecomics]

I want to make sure I understand this.

 

The "first American comic book" :

 

1. Contains material by a creator who isn't an American

 

2. Contains material by a creator who most likely never visited America

 

3. Contains all re-printed material

 

4. Contains no material relating to, about, or for America or Americans

 

With all due respect, not sure why any of the above - even if true - is relevant to whether OO it is the first American comic book. I believe the argument is that it is the first comic book printed here in America. The benefactor for the Smithsonian never ever saw America either.

 

In any event, seriously guys, this is not a topic that should be debated with such venom on each side. It is a great discussion but there is no right or wrong answer that we know of. Just positions and beliefs, many of which can be reasonably argued.

[batman_fan]

What about

The Comical Adventures of the Little Woman, Her Dog and the Peddler?

 

Mulitple panels on some pages... text below the comic illustrations.... beats OO by about 20 years too.

 

Gee, if it weren't for THIS book there would have never been an OO and hence no comic industry!! This is the most important book ever (sounds stupid doesn't it??).

 

Wow, what an incredible comicbook. You cannot begin to imagine my excitement as I gazed on the earliest comicbook that began the entire indistry. When is KK urr I mean showcase-4 going to post a reply.

[tth2]

What about

The Comical Adventures of the Little Woman, Her Dog and the Peddler?

 

Mulitple panels on some pages... text below the comic illustrations.... beats OO by about 20 years too.

 

Gee, if it weren't for THIS book there would have never been an OO and hence no comic industry!! This is the most important book ever (sounds stupid doesn't it??).

 

Wow. If OO is a comic book, The Comical Adventures of the Little Woman, Her Dog and the Peddler certainly is as well.

Game, set and match!

 

Hear that sound? It's the sound of $20,000 pis-sing away.

[esquirecomics]

What about

The Comical Adventures of the Little Woman, Her Dog and the Peddler?

 

Mulitple panels on some pages... text below the comic illustrations.... beats OO by about 20 years too.

 

Gee, if it weren't for THIS book there would have never been an OO and hence no comic industry!! This is the most important book ever (sounds stupid doesn't it??).

 

Is this a book format or pamphlet? Hard cover? Paper cover?

[tb]

Just for the record, this very cool website has been up for years (I posted a reference to it on 06/13/03) and surely both SM and BB are intimately aware of all these and many similiar, earlier references. Personally, I've never understood why OO should stand out as such a giant key, but I don't know enough about the subject to argue either way.

 

One of the key rules of debate is that there has to be a premise for any argument to make sense. I think that has been lacking in this thread. When someone posts about Action 7 or Adventure 61 there's always a great basis for debate because so many of us have a very detailed background knowledge. This shared premise allows the discussions to start at a very high level. OO is different - in an interesting way.

 

I agree with esquire's point that showcase-4 seems inexperienced in posting on a message board. Steve has a lot of knowledge to contribute here and I'd hate to lose him, but many of his posts have come across as tactless (unintentionally, I think/hope).

 

---

 

premise:

 

1 a : a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference; specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn b : something assumed or taken for granted

[showcase4]

What about

The Comical Adventures of the Little Woman, Her Dog and the Peddler?

 

Mulitple panels on some pages... text below the comic illustrations.... beats OO by about 20 years too.

 

Gee, if it weren't for THIS book there would have never been an OO and hence no comic industry!! This is the most important book ever (sounds stupid doesn't it??).

 

Is this a book format or pamphlet? Hard cover? Paper cover?

 

 

Well, whatever this neat little gem is, it's not a sequential comic book, that's for sure.

 

Let's start fresh...hi guys, my name is showcase-4, and I am not KK. I am also new to the boards, and have had my rookie hazing..thanks for bearing with me. I went from never responding to a post to starting my own, and based on your feedback, I'm not doing so hot....that's OK...we have all to start somehwere.

 

I am however, very much not a rookie when it comes to comic books, as I have collected in the past 14 years books from 1842 ( as you know ) all the way up to 1969. The reason this very interesting and appropriate pamphlet? is not a sequential comic book as is Obadiah Oldbuck, is it lacks one key ingredient. It clearly has comic art with text, and tells a story in a sequence...just like Obadiah. The single missing characteristic is that it lacks the enclosure of each image and its corresponding text within its own indivual box or "panel". Had this pamphlet had this additional feature, I would acnkowledge it as a sequential comic book. Since it does not, this would be considered an illustrated text.

[gifflefunk]

Obadiah Oldbuck is also missing several key ingredients, for one there is no dialogue, there is only text describing the image being presented... and there are no word balloons which have historically been one of the key defining characteristics of a "comic strip". Word balloons are why the Yellow Kid was deemed the "first" and not Obadiah Oldbuck). If you can allow something without word balloons/dialogue why does a border around each image have to exist?

 

Word balloons have been around nearly as long as cartoon art, but wasn't the adoption of word balloons into a series of cartoon panels what made the Yellow Kid the first "comic strip" and not just another "cartoon strip" (cartoons have captions, comics have word balloons)?

 

As such, Obadiah Oldbuck is a series of cartoons because it has captions, hence it is not a comic book but rather a cartoon book.

[showcase4]

Obadiah Oldbuck is also missing several key ingredients, for one there is no dialogue, there is only text describing the image being presented... and there are no word balloons which have historically been one of the key defining characteristics of a "comic strip". Word balloons are why the Yellow Kid was deemed the "first" and not Obadiah Oldbuck). If you can allow something without word balloons/dialogue why does a border around each image have to exist?

 

Word balloons have been around nearly as long as cartoon art, but wasn't the adoption of word balloons into a series of cartoon panels what made the Yellow Kid the first "comic strip" and not just another "cartoon strip" (cartoons have captions, comics have word balloons)?

 

As such, Obadiah Oldbuck is a series of cartoons because it has captions, hence it is not a comic book but rather a cartoon book.

 

although you have made some good points here, and I believe I have as well, it is neither you or I that ultimately determine if a book does or does not get classified as a "comic book" or "sequential comic book". The industry has recognized Obadiah Oldbuck as a sequential comic book, and Showcase-4 and Gifflefunk will not change or influence that. Bob Beerbohm 1st "re-discovered" Obadiah in 1998, and it took a few years to be classified and included in Overstreet as a sequential comic book from what I understand ( I could be mistaken..I was collecting promotional comics back then and was not in this era ). Some might or might not agree with it. It is clearly not a "no-brainer", or this post would have fizzled out about 3 weeks ago. I have read from cover to cover one of my copies, and objectively, I was reading what I know from many years of experience to be a "comic book"

[gifflefunk]

although you have made some good points here, and I believe I have as well, it is neither you or I that ultimately determine if a book does or does not get classified as a "comic book" or "sequential comic book". The industry has recognized Obadiah Oldbuck as a sequential comic book, and Showcase-4 and Gifflefunk will not change or influence that. Bob Beerbohm 1st "re-discovered" Obadiah in 1998, and it took a few years to be classified and included in Overstreet as a sequential comic book from what I understand ( I could be mistaken..I was collecting promotional comics back then and was not in this era ). Some might or might not agree with it. It is clearly not a "no-brainer", or this post would have fizzled out about 3 weeks ago. I have read from cover to cover one of my copies, and objectively, I was reading what I know from many years of experience to be a "comic book"

 

I don't agree with the statement that "The industry has recognized Obadiah Oldbuck as a sequential comic book". Beerbohm has pushed his agenda through to the OPG with no "industry" approval. And there are many people in the industry that don't agree with his views (as you have now clearly seen). The OPG lists many items these days that are not "comic books", such as certain magazines (as I mentioned earlier), Big Little Books, as well as "cartoon books" like Obadiah Oldbuck.

 

Beerbohm can keep claiming that word balloons don't matter, and you can keep claiming that boxes around the art are important, to keep the focus on Obadiah Oldbuck as some important part of the history of Cartooning/Comics, but I don't buy it for one minute and I doubt I ever will.

[showcase4]

although you have made some good points here, and I believe I have as well, it is neither you or I that ultimately determine if a book does or does not get classified as a "comic book" or "sequential comic book". The industry has recognized Obadiah Oldbuck as a sequential comic book, and Showcase-4 and Gifflefunk will not change or influence that. Bob Beerbohm 1st "re-discovered" Obadiah in 1998, and it took a few years to be classified and included in Overstreet as a sequential comic book from what I understand ( I could be mistaken..I was collecting promotional comics back then and was not in this era ). Some might or might not agree with it. It is clearly not a "no-brainer", or this post would have fizzled out about 3 weeks ago. I have read from cover to cover one of my copies, and objectively, I was reading what I know from many years of experience to be a "comic book"

 

I don't agree with the statement that "The industry has recognized Obadiah Oldbuck as a sequential comic book". Beerbohm has pushed his agenda through to the OPG with no "industry" approval. And there are many people in the industry that don't agree with his views (as you have now clearly seen). The OPG lists many items these days that are not "comic books", such as certain magazines (as I mentioned earlier), Big Little Books, as well as "cartoon books" like Obadiah Oldbuck.

 

Beerbohm can keep claiming that word balloons don't matter, and you can keep claiming that boxes around the art are important, to keep the focus on Obadiah Oldbuck as some important part of the history of Cartooning/Comics, but I don't buy it for one minute and I doubt I ever will.

 

 

well said, and you sound like a very smart person. Thank you for your input on this post.

[showcase4]

since Beerbaum is doing 99% of the research in this area, I wonder how Showcase 4 will react when Bob announces NEWER OLDER first comic book?? ouch!

 

after throwing up for about 2 hours, I'll regroup, and buy the new book also. You can never have too many $20,000 1st US comics

[showcase4]

I want to make sure I understand this.

 

The "first American comic book" :

 

1. Contains material by a creator who isn't an American

 

2. Contains material by a creator who most likely never visited America

 

3. Contains all re-printed material

 

4. Contains no material relating to, about, or for America or Americans

 

With all due respect, not sure why any of the above - even if true - is relevant to whether OO it is the first American comic book. I believe the argument is that it is the first comic book printed here in America. The benefactor for the Smithsonian never ever saw America either.

 

In any event, seriously guys, this is not a topic that should be debated with such venom on each side. It is a great discussion but there is no right or wrong answer that we know of. Just positions and beliefs, many of which can be reasonably argued.

 

 

This is correct....the claim and fame of Obadiah Oldbuck is that it is the 1st comic book printed in America.....the 1st 'All American' comic book....american artists, story writers, and american published, is an 1849 comic book called "Journey to the Gold Diggins by Jeremiah Saddlebags", by the Read Brothers of New York. It has a California gold rush story to boot....very, very american. It is also the 2nd most valuable/desirable Victorian Age comic. ( Obadiah is #1) As for venom...I have purged my system of it, and welcome any and all viewpoints on this subject.

[Aman619]

since Beerbaum is doing 99% of the research in this area, I wonder how Showcase 4 will react when Bob announces NEWER OLDER first comic book?? ouch!

 

after throwing up for about 2 hours, I'll regroup, and buy the new book also. You can never have too many $20,000 1st US comics

 

well, after you buy th enew book, you wont have all that many 20K books will you? Cause poor old OO will be more like a 2K book again! : )

 

love your new attitude, by the way!

[selegue]

 

This is correct....the claim and fame of Obadiah Oldbuck is that it is the 1st comic book printed in America.....the 1st 'All American' comic book....american artists, story writers, and american published, is an 1849 comic book called "Journey to the Gold Diggins by Jeremiah Saddlebags", by the Read Brothers of New York. It has a California gold rush story to boot....very, very american. It is also the 2nd most valuable/desirable Victorian Age comic. ( Obadiah is #1)

 

Sounds interesting.

Are there any scans available on line (aside from the cover at the Scoop announcement)?

Do you know whether Beerbohm, Castelli and the gang are thinking about reprinting it?

 

As for venom...I have purged my system of it, and welcome any and all viewpoints on this subject.

 

Sounds like you're going to have trouble fitting in here!

 

Jack

(also hoping for more pages of that historic Gallopin' George book)

[showcase4]

 

This is correct....the claim and fame of Obadiah Oldbuck is that it is the 1st comic book printed in America.....the 1st 'All American' comic book....american artists, story writers, and american published, is an 1849 comic book called "Journey to the Gold Diggins by Jeremiah Saddlebags", by the Read Brothers of New York. It has a California gold rush story to boot....very, very american. It is also the 2nd most valuable/desirable Victorian Age comic. ( Obadiah is #1)

 

Sounds interesting.

Are there any scans available on line (aside from the cover at the Scoop announcement)?

Do you know whether Beerbohm, Castelli and the gang are thinking about reprinting it?

 

As for venom...I have purged my system of it, and welcome any and all viewpoints on this subject.

 

Sounds like you're going to have trouble fitting in here!

 

Jack

(also hoping for more pages of that historic Gallopin' George book)

 

Hello Jack,

there is a reprint of Saddlebags from the 1950's...there were about 350 copies printed, and it has a hard cover with a plaid design. I'll see if I can find out where you can get a copy, but I think it may be available on Amazon.