Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[showcase4]

http://www.indyworld.com/indy/winter_2004/angouleme_2004/09.html

[Earl Davis]

This site has a good overview of Rodolphe Töpffer's work including pics of the original 1827 manuscript which did not see print for 10 years...

 

http://leonardodesa.interdinamica.net/comics/lds/vb/VieuxBoisSynopsis.asp?p=Synopsis

[showcase4]

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=8525&si=122

[Timulty]

So did you talk to Geppi? If so, what did he say about it being a comic book?

[gifflefunk]

I still don't see anything that makes me want to call it something other than a book containing a text story with cartoon illustrations... no matter how much Bob Beerbohm pisses and moans that it is a comic book.

[Earl Davis]

I still don't see anything that makes me want to call it something other than a book containing a text story with cartoon illustrations... no matter how much Bob Beerbohm pisses and moans that it is a comic book.

 

So take a sample page like this...

 

http://leonardodesa.interdinamica.net/comics/lds/vb/VieuxBois02.asp?p=2

 

What is it about this page that makes it not a comic? - It's a sequential series of illustrated panels that tell a story. Is it the lack of speech bubbles that is an issue for you in classifying this as a comic strip?

[aardvark88]

The main point is demand. Suspense Comics #3 would normally be say $800 in nm. But due to hi-demand as a classic cover by others than myself, it may be worth $50k ++ in nm. It used to guide for $300 in nm around 13 years ago, then the price went crazy the last 10 yrs HYPED up by Fischler & Co.

[Timulty]

I am not a fan of using demand to gauge the definition of a collectible. If people suddenly start demanding all GA Books that have been CT'd, pieces added etc. be declared non-restored then should the definition of retoration be changed? I think not.

[Sal]

appropos of nothing really, other than my own vague interest...for the life of me i cannot figure out how a dude who so clearly has a love for Victorian Era works to the point where he would start a website promoting the purchase and sales of same would decide to choose "Showcase 4" as a handle here on the boards.

 

it's like a lifelong SA collector who only buys early 60s books deciding to go with "Infinite Crisis" as a username.

 

it's not computing for some reason

[gifflefunk]

I still don't see anything that makes me want to call it something other than a book containing a text story with cartoon illustrations... no matter how much Bob Beerbohm pisses and moans that it is a comic book.

 

So take a sample page like this...

 

http://leonardodesa.interdinamica.net/comics/lds/vb/VieuxBois02.asp?p=2

 

What is it about this page that makes it not a comic? - It's a sequential series of illustrated panels that tell a story. Is it the lack of speech bubbles that is an issue for you in classifying this as a comic strip?

 

It is an illustrated narrative. There is no dialog between characters... the text describes the image you are seeing. If there was more text describing the scene... say a full page of text with illustrations on facing pages would you still be trying to call it a comic book? Or would it now look more like a BLB? Just because the text descriptions are sparse and there are more images per page does not suddenly make it a comic book IMO.

 

I will go so far as to say it has cartoon illustrations accompanied with text, but I don't think that qualifies it as a comic book, I don't think Picto-Fiction magazines or other illustrated narratives, such as BLBs, are comic books by the modern accepted definition of a comic book (and again, if you want to press the issue about calling it a comic book then I can retreat to calling what the majority of us collect as comic magazines... of which OO and its ilk are 100% not).

[CentaurMan]

I tried to rate this thread 1 star again but it wouldn't let me.

[showcase4]

appropos of nothing really, other than my own vague interest...for the life of me i cannot figure out how a dude who so clearly has a love for Victorian Era works to the point where he would start a website promoting the purchase and sales of same would decide to choose "Showcase 4" as a handle here on the boards.

 

it's like a lifelong SA collector who only buys early 60s books deciding to go with "Infinite Crisis" as a username.

 

it's not computing for some reason

 

In 1992, when I 1st enetered the comic world, I was a silver age collector and Showcase 4 was my favorite book, and my 1st expensive book ( back then I paid $6500 for a Fine copy ) My "Showcase-4" ebay name and CGC boards name is simply a flashback ( no pun intended ) to my start in this great hobby

[aardvark88]

My point is that Suspense #3 is not a #1 premiere issue, has no caped hero, a mediocre all red cover, is NOT from a mainstream publisher like Timely or DC, & the story is usually missing the loose page, so who on Earth would want it? Due to some excellent hording & promotion by Metro, a Suspense 3 may be worth $80k in nm on a good day.

 

So 10 years from now, if Oldbuck is properly promoted as the next big thing, it may be worth $20k to the masses.

[Timulty]

I thought the dispute was not the worth of the book but whether the book was a comic book. To me, it is an illustrated pamphlet but I see showcase-4's argument.

[Comicdey]

maybe

 

I'm looking for all the copies right now so I can hoard a couple myself. Major promotion is the only way this will ever happen and I don't think anyone will hang out to listen to hucksterism for that long.....although this thread is 24 pages.

 

I'm done with this thread now. I've promoted it enough.

 

Hey Showcase 4, could you scan some interior pages for everyone to look at....I could buy the reprint, but it just wouldn't be the same.

 

I'll come back to the thread for that.

 

Later....

[tb]

The more I've gotten into the history of early comics (which for me currently is the period 1930-40), the less interesting the question on whether a particular publication is a "comic book" has become to me. I've collected Disney comics for most of my life but have gradually come to believe that there's no such thing as "the first Disney comic". Moreover, the question has become much less relevant or interesting to me: the real fun is in exploring the largely continuous process of trial and error that eventually evolved into "the modern comic book" sometime around 1940 +/-. Discussing a single book in isolation doesn't make sense to me unless you know the details of how it was affected by and influenced other books in its time. This is why consider Jon Berks' articles and info about early "comics" the most interesting reading I've seen on the boards to date: they present an incredible wealth of knowledge about titles and artists in the context of their time. Likewise, although I con't personally collect superheroes, I enjoy learning from the discussions between experts with exceptional knowledge on the topic.

 

To me, OO would probably be worth a few thousand dollars today (I think I bid around $2,500 back in 2002). It could be possibly be worth a whole lot more if more information was available on the period, just like I could see (other?) key Victorian and Platinum books becoming considerably more collectible (and, as a consequence, valuable) if a superb and extensive reference guide were to be published at some point. It's not clear whether that will ever happen, though, and I'd rather focus my budget on areas that are better understood.

 

A while back, I got to visit a friend who has an absolutely incredible collection of early original art. Seeing some of the best existing originals of Blondie, Krazy Kat, Flash Gordon, Peanuts etc. was one thing, but it was all the interesting stories he told that really brought them to life and made me want to collect them myself.

[showcase4]

maybe

 

I'm looking for all the copies right now so I can hoard a couple myself. Major promotion is the only way this will ever happen and I don't think anyone will hang out to listen to hucksterism for that long.....although this thread is 24 pages.

 

I'm done with this thread now. I've promoted it enough.

 

Hey Showcase 4, could you scan some interior pages for everyone to look at....I could buy the reprint, but it just wouldn't be the same.

 

I'll come back to the thread for that.

 

Later.... [/quote

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/news_images/2766_7382_1.jpg

[Earl Davis]

I still don't see anything that makes me want to call it something other than a book containing a text story with cartoon illustrations... no matter how much Bob Beerbohm pisses and moans that it is a comic book.

 

So take a sample page like this...

 

http://leonardodesa.interdinamica.net/comics/lds/vb/VieuxBois02.asp?p=2

 

What is it about this page that makes it not a comic? - It's a sequential series of illustrated panels that tell a story. Is it the lack of speech bubbles that is an issue for you in classifying this as a comic strip?

 

It is an illustrated narrative. There is no dialog between characters... the text describes the image you are seeing. If there was more text describing the scene... say a full page of text with illustrations on facing pages would you still be trying to call it a comic book? Or would it now look more like a BLB? Just because the text descriptions are sparse and there are more images per page does not suddenly make it a comic book IMO.

 

I will go so far as to say it has cartoon illustrations accompanied with text, but I don't think that qualifies it as a comic book, I don't think Picto-Fiction magazines or other illustrated narratives, such as BLBs, are comic books by the modern accepted definition of a comic book (and again, if you want to press the issue about calling it a comic book then I can retreat to calling what the majority of us collect as comic magazines... of which OO and its ilk are 100% not).

 

Thanks for such a good answer.

 

OK...

 

I also don't consider BLB's to be comics. I was surprised when Bob/Gemstone elected to include them) I have never seen a 'Picto-Fiction magazine' in the flesh but based on the two pages in this thread they look more like illustrated text stories than comics, although the positioning of the text within the art makes them more 'comic like' than your typical Ladybird book or BLB.

 

I have never seen Oldbuck in the flesh either but the layout of the panels (on the same page as opposed to single page illustrations) and the harmonious blend of words and pictures (where one does not dominate the other) shout comic strip to me.

 

I notice I use the words ‘Comic Strip’ or ‘Comic’ and you use the words Comic Book. If we are using the word comic book to describe a format in which comics or comic strips appear (i.e the format of a modern post 1930’s American newsstand Comic book) then I am happy to say that many early ‘comics’ are not ‘comic books’ (as in the format; comic book) but they are comics (in the form: comic). Just the same as both a Comic Book and TPB can contain comics (often an identical strip) so they contain the same comic strip form but have a different physical format.

[Earl Davis]

I do wonder (but not too much) that if Marvel published a reprint of Oldbuck next month in the modern comic book format but with all the original panel layout, original art and text would people be more willing to accept that as a comic book?

[gifflefunk]

I do wonder (but not too much) that if Marvel published a reprint of Oldbuck next month in the modern comic book format but with all the original panel layout, original art and text would people be more willing to accept that as a comic book?

 

Marvel has already tried printing cartoon illustrations in modern forms at least twice before... one was a magazine called Snafu and the other was a standard "comic book" looking 36-page two staple format called Groovy. Neither of which I would call a comic book.

 

Marvel also packaged several non-comic book items in a comic book format in the past 25 years... the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe series (1982) comes to mind.... those are also are not comic books... they are pages of text with comic character illustrations and they are packaged in the same physical format as a standard comic book but I wouldn't classify them as "comic books" either even though they have the outward appearance of a comic book.