Larson Copy of Marvel Comics #1 on Heritage

[bluechip]

Re: <<<<The vast majority of collectors would have picked up the Batman>>>>

 

 

No question there. And that's the point on which I think we agree. The greater number of people iaware of an items and nterested in collecting it, the more likely it is to be a smart long-term investment.

[comicparadox]

or - - -buying an autographed Babe Ruth ball and playing a pick up game in the street with it!

 

Off topic, but when I was a kid, I had a Johnny Unitas football and a Boog Powell baseball that my grandfather got me ( He lived in Baltimore). I had them on my bookshelf and was proud of them, kept them unplayed with and in beautiful shape. You probably know the rest. We had a party at my house one day, and an erstwhile "friend" who held a grudge against me got them and took both outside, and got everyone to start throwing them around. They didn't realize they were autographed balls until both were scuffed up.

 

I still hate that guy.

[comicparadox]

Jerry Ross told me that he put bits and dabs of glue on the Larson Marvel 1-9.

 

Stephen

 

Does Ross still peddle them funnybooks? A few years ago he had a nicely restored Action 1 that I should have pounced on, but $42K seemed a bit steep at the time. My bad.

[bluechip]

You should have killed the guy. Similar story with a happier ending. I had a big party at my house one day and realized afrterwards somebody had stolen the babe ruth and ty cobb cards I had on a shelf. I didn't fret any because, out of fear they'd get faded from UV expiosure, I had replaced the original cards with color copies., And those are what my partygoing thief made off with.

[bluechip]

thanks

[bluechip]

Thanks,. I think your network of disclosure concept is a great idea because ultimately it not only encourages honesty, but rationalality. YES, disclose it has a tiny dot of color touch or glue. And, at the same time, understand it doesn't mean all that much.

[supapimp]

This is a mistake.

 

The book was supposed to go out in a blue label. I never changed the catagory field from Restored SA to Universal.

 

When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book.

 

We are contacting Heritage to let them know, as we would never want the consigner to take a loss because of a mistake we made.

 

the consignor should be thanking you big time for the relabeling and also should be buying the person who started this thread a steak dinner.

[adamstrange]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

.....actually, this was not meant to be a joke. For the big time investors I know. (like the ones that could afford this Marvel #1)..their 1st concerns are unrestored and grade....the book really does come after that. Imagine that I'm offering you a book that you haven't seen / and don't know what it is........... and you are a high roller, and I'm known for selling high dollar keys - we are on the phone. If I start by saying " I have a restored Fair 1.0" you will cut me off and say "no need to continue". Same roll playing, and I start by saying " I have an unrestored VF+ 8.5 "....not only would you not be cutting me off, you would most likely be hanging on my every word until I tell you what book it is..........

 

 

When you're talking about "big time investors" I presume you mean people who already have copies of Action 1, Marvel 1, etc. and they're at the point where they're upgrading or filling holes in a fairly (or even very) extensive collection.

 

If any such "big time investor" however has no copy whatsoever of Action 1 and instread of getting a low grade or restored copy prefers to spend as much if not more on high grade copies of things the average person never heard of, then I'd say that money is chasing the wrong investments.

 

Just as an exervise, take that prurity list and apply it to just about anything else, and it will seem less than sensible. Collect first edition books? Sure... but forget that first edition faulkner. I prefer a high grade unrestored copy of something else, anything else. Collect cars? Don't bother calling me about a restored bugatti. I want that mint condition corolla. Collect fine art? Don't insult me with calls about the Mona Lisa. I heard that's restored. let me know when you've got an unrestored high grade piece..

 

On the other hand, one advantage of collecting high grade unrestpred comics is that there are plenty to go around, so long as you care more about condition than content. Hel, there's more than 20,000 mile high books, and tens of thousands of other pedigree golden age, whith more being discovered and certified all the time. And if you don't mind collecting silver age, there's more high grade unrestoreds than you could even count. And if you don't mind modern stuff (and apparently many people don't mind) you've got a limitless supply of unrestored high grade special editions and variants and signature series books. As I understand it, they're manufacturing more even as we speak.

 

Compare that to a hundred or so copies of golden age keys, and you can see why many :"advisors" tell people to steer clear of bad investments like a Marvel 1 that has a dot of glue on it.

 

If you don't advise people to steer clear of restored books, they might get the silly notion that content and cultural significance is more important. Then they'll all be chasing the too-few copies of action 1 and passing up those warehouses full of unrestored high grade gems.

 

There are quite a few counter examples of collectibles/antiques where restoration is a big deal -- especially when there are multiples of a single item. Almost every other Antiques Roadshow episode has a sad tale of someone fussing with / refinishing something and thereby making it vastly less valuable.

 

OTH, I think there is more tolerance for restoration on works of singular works of art -- just as there is for original comics art.

 

There are a lot of comic collectors who don't like restorationand who'll turn down the Batman 1. There are others who love beautiful comics who'll choose alternative books in high grade rather than a restored or low grade Batman. I'm one of those. I could certainly have saved my pennies and bought a copy but I'd prefer to have a stack of, in my mind, much cooler, colorful, and creative comics than Batman 1.

 

I encourage folks to figure out what they like and buy accordingly. If you like restored Batman 1 because it gives you collecting goosebumps and seems like a relative bargain then by all means go for it. Heck, by a dozen!

[rodan57]

I'd like to know what a minor amount of glue means. If the glue is sitting there the way a coffee stain might, then it's just damage.

 

If the glue has a functional purpose (the tiniest daub used to prevent a spine split from traveling) then I see it as the tiniest example of restoration.

 

Are some books too politically/economically 'charged' to be saddled with a purple label?

Perhaps someone with more experience and perspective on this might comment?

[showcase4]

Most people would know the Larson had a PLOD at one time, and now it was blue.

 

After about 3 minutes of intense consideration, the only thing I could come up with as the meaning of the acronym PLOD is: "purple label of death"

Did I get it right...or should I be embarassed right now?

[adamstrange]

Most people would know the Larson had a PLOD at one time, and now it was blue.

 

After about 3 minutes of intense consideration, the only thing I could come up with as the meaning of the acronym PLOD is: "purple label of death"

Did I get it right...or should I be embarassed right now?

 

 

Some prefer "doom".

[comicdonna]

I'd like to know what a minor amount of glue means. If the glue is sitting there the way a coffee stain might, then it's just damage.

 

If the glue has a functional purpose (the tiniest daub used to prevent a spine split from traveling) then I see it as the tiniest example of restoration.

 

Are some books too politically/economically 'charged' to be saddled with a purple label?

Perhaps someone with more experience and perspective on this might comment?

Exactly. For instance, this book has a small amount of dried glue on the cover.

This book has a small amount of glue on the spine on the cover.

[ciorac]

I'd like to know what a minor amount of glue means. If the glue is sitting there the way a coffee stain might, then it's just damage.

 

If the glue has a functional purpose (the tiniest daub used to prevent a spine split from traveling) then I see it as the tiniest example of restoration.

 

Are some books too politically/economically 'charged' to be saddled with a purple label?

Perhaps someone with more experience and perspective on this might comment?

 

Yes, some books are to politically charged to get a purple label. It goes back to the old "wheat paste" a certain notable collector and former owner of many major key Mile Highs used to put on them to tighten up minor defects. Restoration? Absolutley. Once slabbed was it disclosed? Yep. Did it get a purple label? Nope. The book was/is bigger than the rule. Send in an Archie 27 with the same amount of work..PLOD.

 

Just the way it is.

[bluechip]

Re: <<<<<<<<some books are to politically charged to get a purple label. It goes back to the old "wheat paste" a certain notable collector and former owner of many major key Mile Highs used to put on them to tighten up minor defects. Restoration? Absolutley. Once slabbed was it disclosed? Yep. Did it get a purple label? Nope. The book was/is bigger than the rule. Send in an Archie 27 with the same amount of work..PLOD.

 

Just the way it is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

Comics collecting and gtrading has been poilitically charged for a long time. Books that have defects like writing on the cover are spun by the dealer who bought them so they are called pedigrees and the defects (arrival marks, names on covers, etc.) are no longer considered defects but magtically transformed into value-adding markings that prove it to be the pedigree. Yet similar marks on "non-pedigrees" brought the grade way down.

 

That was questionable enough, but now we have the same sort of "flexible" rules -- giving higher grades to books owned by big dealers/collectors than virtually identical books owned by people with less pull -- going on with slabbed books. You can compare them directly side by side (or scan by scan) and see plenty of evidence to lead a reasonable person to conclude that, at worst, it's rigged to favor bigger clients.

 

And even the very best and most generous assessment labels the system horribly inconsistent.

[adamstrange]

Can somebody trim his scans?

 

 

Please

[adamstrange]

Re: <<<<<<<<some books are to politically charged to get a purple label. It goes back to the old "wheat paste" a certain notable collector and former owner of many major key Mile Highs used to put on them to tighten up minor defects. Restoration? Absolutley. Once slabbed was it disclosed? Yep. Did it get a purple label? Nope. The book was/is bigger than the rule. Send in an Archie 27 with the same amount of work..PLOD.

 

Just the way it is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

Comics collecting and gtrading has been poilitically charged for a long time. Books that have defects like writing on the cover are spun by the dealer who bought them so they are called pedigrees and the defects (arrival marks, names on covers, etc.) are no longer considered defects but magtically transformed into value-adding markings that prove it to be the pedigree. Yet similar marks on "non-pedigrees" brought the grade way down.

 

That was questionable enough, but now we have the same sort of "flexible" rules -- giving higher grades to books owned by big dealers/collectors than virtually identical books owned by people with less pull -- going on with slabbed books. You can compare them directly side by side (or scan by scan) and see plenty of evidence to lead a reasonable person to conclude that, at worst, it's rigged to favor bigger clients.

 

And even the very best and most generous assessment labels the system horribly inconsistent.

 

"Spun by dealers"

 

Is this to mean that if dealers stopped spinning we'd all have a group hug and grade and value are books in the same way?

 

I don't think so and there's probably a dozen or more threads I could point you to. This one was just started today because we haven't disagreed enough lately on this topic.

 

Oh, and it's from the General Forum so there'll be several extraneous posts from October that you should ignore.

[tth2]

While I must applaud the email owning up to the grading "mistake" I must point out what I would hope to be obvious. That this underscores how completely

batsh--t INSANE the restoration debate has become. Here we are with a book that has great collectibility and should go for a huge amount of money, and large defects (like fading and writing) did not prevent the book from acquiring low grade status. Yet much lesser defects would have been considered death to its value if they had been acquired with the intent of making the book appear better. And we have one defect (glue) that is, by all accounts, even the graders, a very TINY defect, yet it caused a huge debate and lots of concern over whether it should or should not be in a blue or a purple label. The defect is the same in either case, yet people got all in twist over whether it would or should end up with a purple lable or not.

 

I am all for disclosure of each and every defect, including any attempt at restoration. But I am also for RATIONAL thinking. And these sort of incidents indicate the restoration debate has become much less than completely rational.

 

Yes, people deceived buyers in the past with books that had giant amounts of color touch and even recreated chunks of artwork. But not long ago the overstreet guide itself directly ADVISED people to get books restored "to improve their appearance," and many people took that advice -- and the general approval o disclosed restoration withing the hobby -- and had slight work done with the best of intentions. And they have been made to lose great sums of money because some have gone very very far out of their way to reverse that with the express intent of making those books lose their value and make those honest people lose that money. Collectors out there can easily rattle off celebrities and other wealthy individuals who bought books at or about guide and then had to sell at break even or loss amouts because of the vitriolic changes in the hobby and I can assure you there are famous former collectors who are PISSED and not saying good things to their famous and wealthy friends who consider buying comics as an investment.

I will say what I used to say to Lou Fine when this same debate used to rage before.

 

IF you and others believe that the market is irrationally underpricing PLODs and irrationally lumping all forms of restoration together, then vote with your feet!

 

Start buying up each and every of these irrationally underpriced books that you see. It is only when prices start moving up on PLODs, and the market sees a trend developing of higher prices being paid for PLODs with minimal restoration versus lower prices being paid for PLODs with extensive restoration, that other collectors will see the light.

 

This happens every day in the financial markets with assets that smart investors believe the rest of the market has irrationally underpriced. They act upon their convictions by buying the underpriced assets and continuing to buy those assets until the rest of the market catches on. If you truly believe what you're saying, you have the ability to change things by putting your money where your mouth is.

[action1kid]

Your right. No one is saying it with the bucks!

Thats where the real conviction is.

In the most respectful way I can say it. Talk is cheap.

[batman_fan]

Your right. No one is saying it with the bucks!

Thats where the real conviction is.

In the most respectful way I can say it. Talk is cheap.

 

Actually, people have been saying it with their money. Check out the sells for Batman 1 in high grade with slight restoration. Price is definitely higher than the same book with moderate or extensive.

[action1kid]

I was not speaking in absolutes. There are always exceptions.

It is a general statement.