USAGE GUIDELINES - comment thread 3 3

[Architecht]

Pre-announcing sales in the general forum is out. Doesn't belong there.

[OldGuy]

Such threads have some value in the Marketplace Forum as others describe above, mostly to let people know what's coming up and when. Since it's first come first serve around here, it's nice to know when to be paying attention!

 

I like a couple of hours warning.

[drbanner]

Well, the experiment in splitting up the forum has been going on for a few months now, and I'd like to see the rules modified to allow anyone to post their books for sale in this forum, as long as they list the books/prices here, directly in the post.

 

A quick search of the 1st two pages of the ebay/dealers forum shows maybe 3 or 4 posts that aren't ebay advertisements. The 3 or 4 actual "for sale" posts include some great offerings of accurately graded, well-priced books being offered by nearmint, qualitycomix, and esquirecomics. For example, I can guarantee that a lot of forum members would be interested in these great, early SA Marvels if they were offered in this forum. As it is, they sit lonely and unappreciated in the ebay forum (which is basically what the ebay/dealer forum has become) because most members probably don't even look there. The exact same thing happened 10 years ago to the old rec.arts.comic.marketplace newsgroup - when ebay appeared, it became a "dead zone" full of nothing but ebay spam.

 

I would stipulate that books that are also offered elsewhere should only be posted here as long as forum members are given a lower price (forum "deal"). I would also suggest we delete the requirement concerning no outside links, as most posters use external websites/links to host their photos, and most transactions are done using Paypal.

 

These changes will increase the both the quality and quantity of offerings in this forum. The "other" forum should remain for ebay SPAM, and "pointers" to dealer websites.

 

[Sal]

I would stipulate that books that are also offered elsewhere should only be posted here as long as forum members are given a lower price (forum "deal"). I would also suggest we delete the requirement concerning no outside links, as most posters use external websites/links to host their photos, and most transactions are done using Paypal.

 

i'm all for it, with a caveat;

 

one thread per dealer, per month (or other acceptable time period). i don't think anyone here wants masses of dealers blowing out their unsellable dollar box stuff here every day. having a dealer add to an existing thread with new books would allow the forum to stay mostly Forum-centric, and further keep high-volume dealers from throwing eight billion books in a thread, for fear of the chaos such a thread would likely invoke

[drbanner]

I would stipulate that books that are also offered elsewhere should only be posted here as long as forum members are given a lower price (forum "deal"). I would also suggest we delete the requirement concerning no outside links, as most posters use external websites/links to host their photos, and most transactions are done using Paypal.

 

i'm all for it, with a caveat;

 

one thread per dealer, per month (or other acceptable time period). i don't think anyone here wants masses of dealers blowing out their unsellable dollar box stuff here every day. having a dealer add to an existing thread with new books would allow the forum to stay mostly Forum-centric, and further keep high-volume dealers from throwing eight billion books in a thread, for fear of the chaos such a thread would likely invoke

 

Great, I second the motion!

 

Arch - can we implement the proposed rule changes that reflect the reality of the way the new forums have been implemented in practice? The great fear of a flood of evil dealer postings never materialized, the "forum deal" stipulation will assure forum members get the best deal possible, and I believe it will prevent excessive dealer postings because the big on-line dealers (Metro, MileHigh, etc.,.) aren't going to go through the trouble of re-pricing their inventory to attempt to garner a sale here.

 

The argument that allowing "dealers" to post here would somehow dilute this forum didn't happen, but what did happen was upstanding forum members like Brent, Jeff, Mark, and ComicSupply were made to feel like they're great offerings cannot be posted in this forum. The ebay/dealers forum is really just the ebay spam forum, with an occasional dealer link post tossed in whenever Mark Wilson decides to let us know he updated his site (he has awesome books by the way, so I'm not complaining, just stating the obvious).

[awe4one]

I would stipulate that books that are also offered elsewhere should only be posted here as long as forum members are given a lower price (forum "deal"). I would also suggest we delete the requirement concerning no outside links, as most posters use external websites/links to host their photos, and most transactions are done using Paypal.

 

i'm all for it, with a caveat;

 

one thread per dealer, per month (or other acceptable time period). i don't think anyone here wants masses of dealers blowing out their unsellable dollar box stuff here every day. having a dealer add to an existing thread with new books would allow the forum to stay mostly Forum-centric, and further keep high-volume dealers from throwing eight billion books in a thread, for fear of the chaos such a thread would likely invoke

 

Great, I second the motion!

 

Arch - can we implement the proposed rule changes that reflect the reality of the way the new forums have been implemented in practice? The great fear of a flood of evil dealer postings never materialized, the "forum deal" stipulation will assure forum members get the best deal possible, and I believe it will prevent excessive dealer postings because the big on-line dealers (Metro, MileHigh, etc.,.) aren't going to go through the trouble of re-pricing their inventory to attempt to garner a sale here.

 

The argument that allowing "dealers" to post here would somehow dilute this forum didn't happen, but what did happen was upstanding forum members like Brent, Jeff, Mark, and ComicSupply were made to feel like they're great offerings cannot be posted in this forum. The ebay/dealers forum is really just the ebay spam forum, with an occasional dealer link post tossed in whenever Mark Wilson decides to let us know he updated his site (he has awesome books by the way, so I'm not complaining, just stating the obvious).

 

I'd agree if the dealers don't force people back to their sites to process the orders. If this practice became common, I don't see why anyone would want to pay to have their banners here...

 

Jim

[drbanner]

I'd agree if the dealers don't force people back to their sites to process the orders.

 

No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, and if it's worth it to you to go to Brent's site to buy the book, you will, otherwise, you won't. Now, I'm not complaining because it's great his books are being offered here first and I've been dealing with him since the pre-CGC days, but, for example, Nick is only accepting Paypal payment from US collectors, which requires you to go to another site to complete the transaction. I'd guess the vast majority of forum deals are done this way.

 

To me, it's not really about obliging to the letter of the law with the guidelines (very few for sale posts lay out all the payment and shipping details required in the guidelines anyway), it's about complying with the spirit of the guidelines to make this board the best place on the 'net to buy comics - best selection, best prices, best service. The fly-by-nighters have caused a lot more problems lately while in full compliance with the "guidelines" have than long-time, well-established forum members (Russ/Mark/Jeff/Brent/etc.,.) ever have.

[awe4one]

I'd agree if the dealers don't force people back to their sites to process the orders.

 

No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, and if it's worth it to you to go to Brent's site to buy the book, you will, otherwise, you won't. Now, I'm not complaining because it's great his books are being offered here first and I've been dealing with him since the pre-CGC days, but, for example, Nick is only accepting Paypal payment from US collectors, which requires you to go to another site to complete the transaction. I'd guess the vast majority of forum deals are done this way.

 

To me, it's not really about obliging to the letter of the law with the guidelines (very few for sale posts lay out all the payment and shipping details required in the guidelines anyway), it's about complying with the spirit of the guidelines to make this board the best place on the 'net to buy comics - best selection, best prices, best service. The fly-by-nighters have caused a lot more problems lately while in full compliance with the "guidelines" have than long-time, well-established forum members (Russ/Mark/Jeff/Brent/etc.,.) ever have.

 

I agree to a certain extent. This Forum was set up for collector to collector transactions...not "come to my website to buy" type transactions. And that's what's happening with Brent. If I wanted to go to his website I would (and have)...but I come here to buy from other Forumites who have no other avenue, outside of eBay, to offer their wares. Playing fast and loose with the rules will quickly drown out those collectors...and that's happening to a certain extent already with some collectors selling on the Forum almost full time and probably doing better business than some of the moderate Internet dealers. But at least they're doing it on the Forum and not somehow linking back to a dedicated selling websites...

 

Going to Paypal to pay isn't what we're talking about here and isn't applicable to the discussion. Brent could have very easily done the same thing and I wouldn't have a problem but instead a person must "register" on his site and provide valuable personal information such as e-mail address to complete transactions. That's not a Forum-dedicated sale in my opinion...

 

Jim

[Sal]

I agree to a certain extent. This Forum was set up for collector to collector transactions...not "come to my website to buy" type transactions. And that's what's happening with Brent. If I wanted to go to his website I would (and have)...but I come here to buy from other Forumites who have no other avenue, outside of eBay, to offer their wares. Playing fast and loose with the rules will quickly drown out those collectors...and that's happening to a certain extent already with some collectors selling on the Forum almost full time and probably doing better business than some of the moderate Internet dealers. But at least they're doing it on the Forum and not somehow linking back to a dedicated selling websites...

 

Going to Paypal to pay isn't what we're talking about here and isn't applicable to the discussion. Brent could have very easily done the same thing and I wouldn't have a problem but instead a person must "register" on his site and provide valuable personal information such as e-mail address to complete transactions. That's not a Forum-dedicated sale in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

the way i'm choosing to interpret drbanner's take on it is that if this example was about someone we - as a community - did not know, then your point would be completely spot-on. but since we are talking about a known and trusted member, then we can agree that strict and deliberate rules-following isn't doing right by the community.

 

we put the Forum rules in place not just so we can have rules to go by, although that may have been the impetus for some, but to minimise the amount of chrap we as a community would have to deal with. to say that we won't allow for the opportunity for some dealers people to sell at a Forum-only discount because it doesn't follow the strictest interpretation of the rules...i think that does the community a disservice. that being said, i'm not advocating the elimination of rules, as i think they have really helped this particular Forum remain vital and a great place to buy great books at good prices.

 

in Brent's particular case, i don't think anyone would argue that we are looking at a situation where the dealing of chrap is an issue.

 

but again, i do think the dialogue about this is important and appreciate Jim's take on it, and his willingness to speak up and be called out for making the case he's making

[qualitycomix]

I'd agree if the dealers don't force people back to their sites to process the orders.

 

No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, and if it's worth it to you to go to Brent's site to buy the book, you will, otherwise, you won't. Now, I'm not complaining because it's great his books are being offered here first and I've been dealing with him since the pre-CGC days, but, for example, Nick is only accepting Paypal payment from US collectors, which requires you to go to another site to complete the transaction. I'd guess the vast majority of forum deals are done this way.

 

To me, it's not really about obliging to the letter of the law with the guidelines (very few for sale posts lay out all the payment and shipping details required in the guidelines anyway), it's about complying with the spirit of the guidelines to make this board the best place on the 'net to buy comics - best selection, best prices, best service. The fly-by-nighters have caused a lot more problems lately while in full compliance with the "guidelines" have than long-time, well-established forum members (Russ/Mark/Jeff/Brent/etc.,.) ever have.

 

I agree to a certain extent. This Forum was set up for collector to collector transactions...not "come to my website to buy" type transactions. And that's what's happening with Brent. If I wanted to go to his website I would (and have)...but I come here to buy from other Forumites who have no other avenue, outside of eBay, to offer their wares. Playing fast and loose with the rules will quickly drown out those collectors...and that's happening to a certain extent already with some collectors selling on the Forum almost full time and probably doing better business than some of the moderate Internet dealers. But at least they're doing it on the Forum and not somehow linking back to a dedicated selling websites...

 

Going to Paypal to pay isn't what we're talking about here and isn't applicable to the discussion. Brent could have very easily done the same thing and I wouldn't have a problem but instead a person must "register" on his site and provide valuable personal information such as e-mail address to complete transactions. That's not a Forum-dedicated sale in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

I can download email addresses, addresses and all other transaction information into an excel format from my paypal payments as can any seller who accepts paypal. This is not private info Jim, as much as you'd like it to be.

 

And I don't hold any info except for the info that paypal already would provide me. My merchant handles all of the transactional stuff and you can pay via paypal as well.

 

It's just easier for shipping/tracking purposes (and for me accounting).

[awe4one]

I can download email addresses, addresses and all other transaction information into an excel format from my paypal payments as can any seller who accepts paypal. This is not private info Jim, as much as you'd like it to be.

 

And I don't hold any info except for the info that paypal already would provide me. My merchant handles all of the transactional stuff and you can pay via paypal as well.

 

Do you add e-mails used in the registration process to your mailing list?

 

Jim

Edited April 14, 2007 by awe4one

[qualitycomix]

I can download email addresses, addresses and all other transaction information into an excel format from my paypal payments as can any seller who accepts paypal. This is not private info Jim, as much as you'd like it to be.

 

And I don't hold any info except for the info that paypal already would provide me. My merchant handles all of the transactional stuff and you can pay via paypal as well.

 

Do you add e-mails used in the registration process to your mailing list?

 

Jim

 

I'm not sure. Then again, I've never registered for my own site.

 

I know that once you do register, in the email preferences, you can say "no" to the mailing list. I'm just not 100% sure about the registration part. I'd have to talk to my web designer or one of my customers.

[drbanner]

It seems the rules, as they now stand, protect CGC's potential revenue stream from the banner ads, and also protect forum member "collectors" that are trying to sell books (wouldn't that make them a dealer?) from competition from real "dealers" who might otherwise post their books here. To me, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face since the end result is a smaller selection of books, from a less-reliable pool of sellers (any shmoe can register, not participate in the "community", list books for sale, without any background information at all). Allowing "dealers" that have books listed elsewhere to post their books here (at a lower price than offered elsewhere) will increase the selection, and reliability of the seller pool.

 

The ebay/dealer forum should be used for ebay SPAM, and dealer "pointers" like Doug (pedigree) and Mark (PGC_Mint) use it for. Those types of posts currently constitute over 90% of the posts in that forum. If I'm interested in something Brent posts, the hurdle of having to register on his site is certainly something I would consider when deciding to pull the trigger or not (and it undoubtedly results in some lost sales), but I would rather have the opportunity to make that choice myself, than have the choice made for me by the limitations of the current "guidelines".

 

I place a much greater premium on my ability to buy books here, than on my ability to sell books here.

[awe4one]

It seems the rules, as they now stand, protect CGC's potential revenue stream from the banner ads, and also protect forum member "collectors" that are trying to sell books (wouldn't that make them a dealer?) from competition from real "dealers" who might otherwise post their books here.

 

I agree...that's exactly why the Forum exists. As far as the banner ads part, I agree CGC protects their investment in this regard but sellers, by forcing people to go to their dedicated website to finish the deal, are pretty much circumventing the need to advertise here by simply listing a selling thread. Personally I would find that method much more effective than a banner as the buyer has a vested interest to visit the outside site versus simple curiousity...

 

To me, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face since the end result is a smaller selection of books, from a less-reliable pool of sellers (any shmoe can register, not participate in the "community", list books for sale, without any background information at all). Allowing "dealers" that have books listed elsewhere to post their books here (at a lower price than offered elsewhere) will increase the selection, and reliability of the seller pool.

 

Nobody's nose is being cut off here...the established dealers can still post in the other thread. They may have more competition via eBay threads but they can still post nonetheless. And regardless of where dealers' post, it's never going to stop the drive-by seller. There will be just as many of them in any arrangement. The only way to curtail them is additional guidelines focusing on the newbie...but that's another topic...

 

Jim

[drbanner]

I agree...that's exactly why the Forum exists. As far as the banner ads part, I agree CGC protects their investment in this regard but sellers, by forcing people to go to their dedicated website to finish the deal, are pretty much circumventing the need to advertise here by simply listing a selling thread. Personally I would find that method much more effective than a banner as the buyer has a vested interest to visit the outside site versus simple curiousity...

I guess I'm just not as motivated to defend CGC's revenue stream from selling Ads by Heritage and Matt Nelson as I am in having the opportunity to buy books from others (including "dealers").

 

Nobody's nose is being cut off here...the established dealers can still post in the other thread. They may have more competition via eBay threads but they can still post nonetheless

That's what Brent tried first, then commented that he wasn't going to continue since the place was dead and he was getting no response, then he posted them here, then several forum members saw his offering, and now they have added some nice books to their collections.

[awe4one]

I guess I'm just not as motivated to defend CGC's revenue stream from selling Ads by Heritage and Matt Nelson as I am in having the opportunity to buy books from others (including "dealers").

 

Hell...neither am I...but it is what it is...

 

Jim

[Lazyboy]

Here's my take on announing sales.

 

While I would love to know exactly when something I want is going to be available, it's just a dream. Announcements aren't going to help most people much anyway because it's still first come, first served with Mr. ruling all.

 

I don't have a problem with somebody starting a thread with the initial post just stating their sale terms (payments, shipping, etc.) and giving a general description of what they'll be selling if they're going to start posting the books shortly (like within the hour). I also don't have a problem with the first post only containing a few books even if the seller intends to list 1000 more. There are no guidelines for how many books can be listed in a single post and different people use different formats.

 

Posting a thread, or responses in a thread, that contains nothing for sale (whether nothing has been posted for sale or everything has been sold) takes up space and helps bump other threads off the first page. The only exception to this is the Probation thread, which (sadly) is needed and has no other appropriate place.

[divad]

Well said for a "Lazyboy" . . .

[divad]

That's what Brent tried first, then commented that he wasn't going to continue since the place was dead and he was getting no response, then he posted them here, then several forum members saw his offering, and now they have added some nice books to their collections.

 

It's such a rose-colored world . . .

[divad]

I can download email addresses, addresses and all other transaction information into an excel format from my paypal payments as can any seller who accepts paypal. This is not private info Jim, as much as you'd like it to be.

 

And I don't hold any info except for the info that paypal already would provide me. My merchant handles all of the transactional stuff and you can pay via paypal as well.

 

Do you add e-mails used in the registration process to your mailing list?

 

Jim

 

I'm not sure. Then again, I've never registered for my own site.

 

I know that once you do register, in the email preferences, you can say "no" to the mailing list. I'm just not 100% sure about the registration part. I'd have to talk to my web designer or one of my customers.

 

Hey, what can you expect from a "part-time" dealer?