500Club

On 7/5/2020 at 2:11 PM, cbalroman said:

I picked up and read the Prelude TPB this past Wednesday.  Got to say I really enjoyed it.  The prelude is pretty close to a perfect comic read.  The art is really good with a good amount of great spreads.  Curious to see what others thought of it.  

Agree.  Enjoyable read, along with the FCBD issue.

On 6/29/2020 at 10:21 AM, camera73 said:

Well, I've always liked it, since I first bought it off the news stand.

BWS eschewing the norms of feminine beauty found in comics?? ...all day long, for me, brother!

If he’d have eschewed them any further, Majik would have needed a beard.

3 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

5 minutes ago, 500Club said:

You are, as far as pricing.

Let me throw this out there:  what’s the best way to tactfully address woefully inaccurate grading?

Unless you are a Certified grading expert I would recommend a PM.  And try to avoid the "Grading is subjective" as a way to warm them up.  

I, personally, don’t bother.  I just tend to let the overgraded item in question migrate down and off the front page.

And, I’m talking about egregious examples, not a hypothetical case where a good grader in general is selling an 8.5 that you think is more like an 8.0.

5 minutes ago, Poekaymon said:

 

Sometimes it's worthwhile to question things, though I get the sense I'm in the minority here.  

You are, as far as pricing.

Let me throw this out there:  what’s the best way to tactfully address woefully inaccurate grading?

On 6/24/2020 at 4:40 PM, JazzMan said:

I thought the same, but not knowing Trina Robbins and Brent Anderson's  art style, I googled them and it wasn't anywhere close to that monstrosity.

Here’s what happened:  someone got a call from a desperate editor at 11pm, asking if they could ink eight pages by noon the next day.

20 hours ago, Bird said:

This is from the article about Warren Ellis but I think that it applies here.

"An argument I keep seeing: this is about "consenting adults". No. None of us consented to being manipulated, or to becoming a disposable part of a remote stable. You can not give consent if you don't have the entire picture."

Nobody ever has ‘the entire picture’ when they start a relationship.

That said, there are a couple of ugly undertones in these behaviours:  the first would be any suggestion of helping someone into the industry, to help leverage a relationship, the second is the pursuit of a relationship with someone far too young to have your matching social maturity and judgement.

Not illegal, but certainly not of high character.

3 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Any thoughts on the potential value of the upcoming Snake Eyes: Deadgame variants by Mico Suayan? They're some beautiful covers. Apparently Liefeld has a bug up his about it because the homage acknowledgement indicates McFarlane before him, and is refusing to sign them.

Liefeld has a bug up his about everything.  There’ll have to be an exterminator on hand if he ever needs a colonoscopy. 

4 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

1 hour ago, 500Club said:

I can neither endorse this or argue with it.   Miller's output was so sparse.  When he did produce though, things like his core DD run, his follow-up 'Born Again', The Dark Knight Returns, and Batman: Year One were magnificent. 

Ask Miller to do a 60 issue run like Byrne did on FF, though, and we'd see if he could provide that consistent level of excellence.

I think You’re making the assumption that the entire 60 issues was of “consistent level of excellence “, which it wasn’t.

I should re-word that.  I was referring to Miller providing the level of excellence that he did in the works above, consistently.

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2020 at 12:33 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 7:27 AM, Dr Zen said:

Byrne is the greatest writer/artist of the era. But since we are just talking about art: Perez

Really?  I would easily take Miller over Byrne as the greatest writer/artist of that era.  By far.

I can neither endorse this or argue with it.   Miller's output was so sparse.  When he did produce though, things like his core DD run, his follow-up 'Born Again', The Dark Knight Returns, and Batman: Year One were magnificent. 

Ask Miller to do a 60 issue run like Byrne did on FF, though, and we'd see if he could provide that consistent level of excellence.

4 minutes ago, kav said:

6 minutes ago, 500Club said:

And, you are right, as long as it’s truly an opinion being voiced.

If you tell me your opinion is that Rob Liefeld draws anatomy well, I’m going to tell you your ‘opinion’ is just flat out wrong.  See: anti vaxxers 

saying liefeld draws anatomy well would be a statement of fact-because you can compare his drawings with actual human anatomy.  As long as by 'well' you meant 'accurate'.  

LOL... this is where we 

1 minute ago, kav said:

you cannot say things like 'opinions are not always correct'.  You have to understand the meaning of the word 'opinion'.

And, you are right, as long as it’s truly an opinion being voiced.

If you tell me your opinion is that Rob Liefeld draws anatomy well, I’m going to tell you your ‘opinion’ is just flat out wrong.  See: anti vaxxers 

1 minute ago, Myowncollector said:

Avengers 10

Dont remember it being mentioned. If no my apologies. Selling crazy everywhere.

Would have been tough to recall, being all of six posts above. 

Are you old enough to have been at Woodstock? 

9 minutes ago, kav said:

what do you think of gary panter's anatomy:
 

Better than Liefeld’s... sadly... but also a great way to make your point.

Aside from some of the detailing creating surface textures, I don’t see much that would qualify for the winning of awards.

Opinion of the awards committee, that one is...

4 minutes ago, kav said:

13 minutes ago, 500Club said:

Both of these guys were so good that the question you posed pretty much comes down to purely opinion. 

However, if it came down to a debate about either Byrne or Perez vs Liefeld, I think I’d offer that concrete arguments using facts could be made. 

I agree but yet again-there are liefeld lovers that would argue he is better.  Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder. 

I see what you are saying, and in the majority of cases, I agree.  There are certain things that are impossible to get around, though - and in Liefeld’s case, it’s inconsistent proportioning and grossly incorrect anatomy.  Forearms with nine extensor muscles, and upper arms with incorrect bicep and triceps origins and insertions are one step away from drawing a person with three eyes or a car with five wheels. 

1 hour ago, kav said:

I started this thread to check opinions because me and buddy were discussing it.  That is all.  I got what i wanted-Byrne seems to be the more preferred.  That doesnt mean I dont get to weigh in with my vote and give my reasons.
And no, opinions cannot be wrong.  I posted the definition earlier.

Both of these guys were so good that the question you posed pretty much comes down to purely opinion. 

However, if it came down to a debate about either Byrne or Perez vs Liefeld, I think I’d offer that concrete arguments using facts could be made. 

3 minutes ago, kav said:

If those were say used as a scientific criteria for comic art, Byrne would win on anatomy, Perez on perspective.

That's fair.

I'm not looking to go too far with this, as overall, I agree with you that art, and the enjoyment of it is subjective and the majority of it is opinion. 

Interestingly, in terms of the above, I find Byrne's use of perspective far better that the average of the era, and Perez' anatomy far better than the average of the era. 

6 minutes ago, kav said:

13 minutes ago, 500Club said:

Yup.  It depends what is being offered as an 'opinion', especially if that opinion stands in direct conflict with facts.  see: anti-vaxxers

any statement about art is pure opinion.  There is no mathematical model or scientific way to 'prove' one artist is 'better' than another.  Or that something is 'art'.  This is why there is a completely white canvas in the museum of modern art.  

Almost.  In the case of comic book art, there are a few artistic concepts that verge on fact.  Construction and use of two point perspective, three point perspective and vanishing points tend to be pretty concrete and geometrical, as does human anatomy.  In fact, as a Byrne voter, I do agree that his rendering of female faces is limited, and based on evidence, this is more than just opinion.

Also, there's been no discussion about using 'facts' or 'models' to prove one artist is better than another.  This really only came up with the suggestion that Byrne has an issue with perspective. 

13 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Uninformed opinions can be incorrect. Your analogy doesn't hold water, we're not discussing if beets are gross, you're spouting incorrect information on technical aspects of his work.

Yup.  It depends what is being offered as an 'opinion', especially if that opinion stands in direct conflict with facts.  see: anti-vaxxers

6 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

When Perez inked his own pencils, retaining all the detail, his art was on another level entirely; really superb, even then.

Oh, god, yeah.  Some of his own stuff he inked between NTT 37 and 44 was just gorgeous.

Is Neal that old?  Those blue shirts keep him looking much younger.

Sadly, fine motor and dexterity go with age, along with the eyesight you mentioned.

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

Byrne is a 2D artist who's not very good at perspective, Byrne skimps on backgrounds.

Yeah, both of these are patently false.  Perspective in the opening panel of X-Men 133 and the cover of 137 looks pretty good to me, as does the backgrounding.

Also, it’s to be kept in mind that at his peak, Byrne could do 2-3 books and multiple covers a month with minimal drop off in quality.

1 hour ago, kav said:

To be clear I am not saying byrne sucks.  I think he's great.  I just think Perez blows him outta the water.  And that it is easy to cherry pick Byrne but difficult to do so for Perez.

If you want rough examples of Byrne’s art, you look to the later points of his career.

If you want rough examples of Perez’ art, you look to the earlier points of his career.

You may be the only one who thinks one blows the other ‘outta the water’.

6 minutes ago, csaag said:

24 minutes ago, 500Club said:

I chose Byrne as well, but always marvelled at Perez’ ability to craft a hyper-detailed cover or splash, without costing any of the depth and foreground/background separation.

some of his NTT covers were superb

40 and 41 are the ones that amaze me.

1 hour ago, Red_Hood said:

I'll go with Byrne.  His FF stuff was some of the best reading and art.  FF was my favorite during the 80's. He did it better then Lee and Kirby.  Very underappreciated stuff.

I like Perez but for some reason I always found his work was very dense.  There was so much packed into each panel that my short attention span as a kid got tired of looking at everything.

I chose Byrne as well, but always marvelled at Perez’ ability to craft a hyper-detailed cover or splash, without costing any of the depth and foreground/background separation.