jick

20 hours ago, Jasonmorris1000000 said:

I actually liked these better than Man of Steel

I think Alan Moore superhero books should also be going up!  He changed the medium, and he wrote very few superhero comics (not counting Swamp Thing).  Maybe these two Superman stories, DC Presents 85, Superman Annual with Mogul, and Killing Joke?  That's all I can think from the top of my head. 

Enough of the Byrne, Perez, Miller discussions.  Is Groo considered Copper Age?  Destroyer Duck #1 has been exploding on eBay . averaging $500 nowadays in CGC 9.8!

3 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I'm not disagreeing that it's probably undervalued, but I think a lot of the revised origin in the comics was a reflection of what they did in the highly popular Reeve movie.

Byrne kept Ma and Pa Kent alive up to his adulthood - which carried on to future revisions of Superman.  Byrne also took out the Superboy in Smallville part, which opened the door for numerous non-Clark Kent Superboys.

Byrne made Lana know that Clark had powers.  I am not sure if that continued in succeeding revisions of Superman.

He also changed Luthor from mad scientist into a business tycoon - but I think the credit to that belongs to Marv Wolfman.

But yes, I also did see a lot of the Reeve movie in his origin - with the farm and Kansas connection.

Byrne's Man Of Steel was dated 1986 so it was the "first" revision in print - and Batman Year One and Perez's Wonder Woman followed (and those two books are more examples of undervalued books for me!)

The Superman series that followed also started the trend (not sure if it's good) or issues being renumbered to number 1's again!  Every publisher followed suit especially in the 90's.

The post-Crisis reboots set the stage for Marvel reboot stories like the Ultimate line of comics or even Byrne's Spidey Chapter One, or even that time when the Image Comics creators briefly took over the MCU in the 90's and the issues went back to #1. 

So having said all of that, I MoS 1 deserves more love than it's currently getting now.  But actually while they sell for such a low price on eBay (maybe $100 to $120) I hardly see any 9.8's listed, it's even been a while since the regular #1 has been listed.  It could be collectors realizing that the pop reports are quite low that it's not worth their time to sell it as it would be very hard to find again.

I think it's just a matter of time before Groo explodes. I don't think Usagi is bigger than Groo. Neither is Tick. And the list of idependent characters goes on. Groo is the OG. The only thing holding him back is that there are no trade paperbacks easily accessible, and Groo has never appeared on tv or movies yet. Groo is too interesting a character not to eventually get that big break.

Speaking of Byrne, I think his Man Of Steel work is undervalued.

That was the first time Superman has been rebooted with a revised origin. It was made 48 years after Superman's first appearance, and today we are 35 years away from MoS. It eft lasting and permanent changes to the mythos and served as a template for every succeeding reboot and retelling of Superman,'s origin, including the Lois and Clark tv series or Superman TAS cartoon.

Yet, MoS 1 by Byrne, despite its low cgc 9.8 pop report is only a $100 book. I don't see it losing any value but I feel it's a copper age key with a big upside. Actually it's very hard to find MoS 1 regular edition at 9.8 being offered for sale on eBay.

In collectibles, the tide can always change - as we have seen dollar bin books suddenly be worth much, and previously highly regarded books suddenly worth nothing after the realization of print runs.

I think for DC fans like myself, we can use this to our advantage.  I think most DC books - even the "key" ones like DKR - have not yet been priced too out of the stratosphere unlike some Marvel books.  So we can still get some "key" DC books at affordable prices.

For example, "reboots" really started in the post-Crisis Of Infinite Earths world.  The top 3, were the holy trinity - Wonder Woman (WW#1 George Perez), Superman (MoS #1 Byrne), and Batman (issue #404 Frank Miller).  Those are definitely key books that shaped the industry for future reboots - which both DC and Marvel seem to do every 5 years with their main characters.  Despite having top creators and characters, those comics I mentioned can be had at CGC 9.8 for $150-ish.  So those things have a lot of upside.

Meanwhile, without discounting the significance of ASM#300 - is there still anywhere higher to for than $10,000? Has the ceiling been reached?  I think there is a better chance for ASM #300 to see market correction and hit a certain dip, than for those three comics (WW#1, MoS#1, Batman #404) to go down in price.

Nothing again any of the books, but I am happy that I have not been priced out of my favorite DC books yet as honestly I am just a new entrant to the graded comics world.

I saw this reply in a Facebook post about Groo and I think it may have hit the nail in the head!

"The only thing holding groo back from "exploding" is his control freak creator. This is a definite medium term hold as one day the heirs will get the property, and then all bets are off."

I do agree.  It seems Sergio has been very picky with how Groo can be adapted to other media --- maybe too picky that he hasn't picked any!

For me though, Groo is better off as a series than a one-off movie.

Maybe we are just in a Todd McFarlane craze that will subside?

I cannot believe Batman 423 is going for higher amounts that more significant issues like Year One (404-407) or Death In The Family (426-429).  423 has nothing going for it except the cover.

Maybe it's just a matter of time before 423 drops, and 404 will get the recognition it deserves?  404 is right now just a $300-400 book in CGC 9.8 - which is already much higher than months past but not close to 423.

DKR#1 should be "THE" modern grail from the copper era, not ASM 300. It changed comics entirely and the effects are still around to this day!  I'd say even at $4k for 9.8, it is still undervalued compared to ASM 300 ---or maybe it's just 300 that is over-valued now?

Again, just my opinon.  I am not CGC expert, as I have only recently started my CGC collecting (yes the worst time to buy with the prices now!)

On 5/11/2021 at 9:44 PM, ft88 said:

I'll even go with the cover price on a normal DC or Marvel comic.  

10 cent - Golden Age

12 cent - Silver

15-50 - Bronze

.60-$2 - Copper

Above $2 is Modern.  Uiuuu

If Golden Age is simply pre-Code and Silver is Code I'd be good with that too so we cover the superhero rebirth books that are 10 cent.

As many possibilities there are to split the Gold - Copper Ages, Modern is much tougher.  From late 1990s to 2020 is a 25 year era with no real obvious break. 

Variables that make me think of modern books.

All pages are glossier and full comic boxes are heavier.  I think a long box of GA-CA weights 40 lbs whereas MA weighs 50

Artwork and coloring look computer generated (and not in a Corben kind of way)

R Rated material entered into the mainstream titles

Variants out the .

Mainstream hero characters being "replaced" become common

 

None of these occur in a small time window where you can call the end of Copper or break up Modern into eras, but that's ok.

I personally think of Modern as post 1992: Death of Superman, X-men 1, Spiderman 1, X-Force 1 and the start of Image and Valiant.  If I come across a long box of comics that have those comics, I think of it as a Modern comic collection.  

Which leads to the decade argument which seems good to me the more I think of it.

 

 

 

 

 

Frank Miller Batman CGC 9.8 exploding?

Batman 404 newsstand last two sales $1300 and $1k.

DKR#1 approaching $3k.

Have these hit the ceiling? No where to go but down?

Then again, DKR to me is more influential than ASM 300. It changed the comic format (prestige), revolutionized published colors, and of course the storytelling style which writers still use to this day.

So then again maybe we are still at the tip of the iceberg? When Marvelmania will cool down, and the Spidey and Venom movies will have passed, perhaps DKR will be the next ASM300?

I don't think the ship has sailed on Groo appearing on other media. The rights to Groo will transfer to Sergio's heirs in the long run so they should ultimately find a way to preserve Groo's legacy. He's just too iconic and precious as a character to be forever forgotten once Sergio can no longer tell new stories.

Sergio has also been resistant to live action movies, but with the better cartoon or cgi quality of modern times, there is now a bigger chance of a Groo show being more accurate to the comic vision.

Sergio has also been keeping Groo in the public consciousness through the major crossovers with Conan before and Tarzan coming soon. The 12-issue opus Friends and Foes seemed to have been designed to re-introduce the whole Groo cast to new readers. And the recent 4-issue minis from the past 2 decades seemed to have social commentary on matters like the environment, non-finding of weapons of mass destruction, outsourcing of production to China and matters like that. At least that's how I read and understood them.

It seems Sergio has a grand masterplan for Groo. I just can't put a finger on it.

I love Groo so this thread deserves a bump!

Having said that, what do you guys think of Groo #1 Pacific as a long hold investment?  Any upside?

Here's my latest... Neal Adams drawing He-Man from the 1980's....

He-Man Masters Of The Universe Concept Art (1980s) by Neal Adams

I thought I read what I needed to in my last comment, but a lot more new insights here. And yes, my passion is really comic art.

Maybe I should sell my Jordan auto cards so I can finally buy that ArtGerm piece I've always dreamed of... ok, so I'm kidding here haha....

On 2/5/2021 at 6:24 AM, delekkerste said:

I'd keep the cards. Sadly, there's not much you can buy in the comic art world for $16K anymore that is cooler than autographed cards by Kobe (RIP) and Tiger. $16K buys what, maybe half an Erik Larsen Spidey page these days? Unless you happen to like niche stuff that hasn't gone totally nuts in price, I think you're better off keeping the cards than trying to roll that money into mainstream hero art. 

While I am mostly a lurker here, I have been following your posts sometimes.  And while you tend to elicit some disagreements from many, I tend to think in the same wavelength as most of your musings.  I think I also agree with you here.

17 hours ago, JadeGiant said:

No lose situation IMO

What is more important to you? The enjoyment or financial gain? 

If it's enjoyment, do what your heart is telling you (sounds like art to me). 

If it is financial gain, sounds like holding the cards for a while is the way to go. If so, don't sell off blue chip cards if you aren't turning that into blue chip art. 

 

This is coming from a collector who tends to keep things, which reminds me that I need to check my sports cards collection again. 

 

Good luck with whatever you decide

 

Well, a $9k card is not blue chip by any means, but neither is a $9k page.  

I think I have found the answer to my own question through all you incredible insights.

The only reason to sell the cards is to have "ammunition" or "reserves" in case a that piece of comic art comes along.  The problem is, I haven't seen anything in the market or upcoming auctions to move me yet.  So what's the point in selling the cards, when their values continue to go up.  Maybe if a comic art piece really comes along.

10 hours ago, brownies8701 said:

Curious, what are the 2 cards? 

Actually the two are just an example - it's a Kobe Bryant and Tiger Woods card.  I also have a couple of Lebron and Jordan cards that have gone up at least 8x in value.  All those cards I got in the 400ish range in 2018 and now they are $3k (Lebron), to $9k (Kobe, Tiger).  

Thanks for all the replies.  They are very insightful.  There will always be an autographed card of a particular player you like in the market, but a piece of OA is one of a kind.

Therefore, I will probably hold back disposing my cards until I find a page or piece that really means a lot to me.

Your insights are all much much appreciated and I welcome even more insights to this discussion.

Since I was a kid in the mid-80s, comics has always been my first love.

Sometime in the mid-90s, I briefly got into basketball cards - which I would buy in the local comic store actually.

With a little disposable income and returning to my love for comics, I started buying/collecting original comic art in 2011.

In 2018, I started buying autographed basketball cards because those did not exist during the 90's and I thought it was cool that now the cards were actually touched by the player.

Since I started collecting comic art, I have always limited my spending per piece - all usually below $2k.  I only have a two pieces over that amount which I spent $3k and $4k for each respectively.  But I have always been salivating at the idea of getting more high end pieces of comic art.

Fast forward to today, with the explosion of the sports card market - I have one card I bought in 2018 for $300 which consistently goes for over $7,000 now. Then there's another I got for $500 that has just sold for $9,000 in an open auction.

If I let go of these two cards, my total exposure is actually just $800 and I can go for a big $16,000 original art purchase. After all comics is my first love.

Is that a good idea or should I just wait it out because sports cards are still exponentially going up as a faster rate than comic art?  Or will the sports card market bubble burst soon?

Just want to know your thoughts!

6 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

As long as the buyer is aware, it is what it is.
 

Personally I see it link a hand inked xerox copy. Not something I would ever want it as my interest in Neal was as an artist. A hand copied drawing isn’t art, it’s tedium. The art was when he drew the head the first time. Tho for Neal, I haven’t seen much creativity in ages. And I hate his current inking style as well, so an easy pass for me. But I did once love Neal.

There was a time when he was doing some amazing commissions (I got a couple) and drawings for folks, but that ship sailed long ago. He has stock poses and he plugs and plays with these days. He might as well be tracing $100 bills. He is trading off his legend as a genuine artist to make his way now, and I don’t begrudge any artist for using any method they can to make a living. It’s great that the market is there and he can do that. Too many artists struggle.

But it’s not art. It’s commerce. And good on him for making it work.

The buyer is very aware.  Neal is very open about it in his FB live feeds.  But then again, we are talking $200 profile pieces.  That's a Neal Adams hand-drawn for $200!  There is always a market for that given Neal's immense status in the industry.

For original work, Neal does take commission requests through his site. They are considerably more expensive, going up to $1500 for single figure 11x14 no background commissions.

Modern original art published pages sell for $10,000 upwards - most actually in the $20,000 range.

Steering this back on topic, regardless of which price point you buy, you always have the option of adding $10 to $20 for the hologram sticker in the back or certificate of authenticity.

In fairness to Neal, he is making good business and giving fans what they want - a price point for everyone.

As a follower of his auctions - which have some art lessons in between, Neal says that even in the early days - his method to drawing good likenesses is to trace photos.  But that should also be mixed with a good study of anatomy so when you move one music (like mouth when you smile) you'll also know how it affects the eyes and so on and so forth.  In his teenage years, he would do the grids to get likenesses correct and he could draw them good. When he discovered the lightbox or tracing, he said he could capture the same likenesses and do it in 1/5th the time.

Neal has never been shy about his "love for money" and always hints at his quest for efficiency as an artist.  He said that when he left the comic industry in the late 70's to focus on commercial work, he realized that he could make much more money drawing what would be the equivalent of a single comic panel as compared to a comic page.  That era of Neal's absence from comics 80's to 90's to early 00's - was actually where he earned the most.  Today, he does a lot of commissions, profile sketches, published comics in Fantastic Four Antithesis and Batman Vs Ra's, and the odd variant cover here and there.  He is more efficient and more productive than he ever was - because he is using technology to his advantage which he says is: Google search for reference (no need to buy reference books!), Kuretake brush pen for his linework (no need to use brush/nib to be dipped), and have people in his studio fill in the blacks for him (which he says does not require any artistic skill so his rendering was already the heavy lifting done).

I personally have a few Neal Adams pieces but they are of the larger format and they are recreations/re-tracings of poses he has previously drawn.  It's because that's what I prefer.  I haven't dipped into his $200 sketch offerings yet.

Let me name some of my favorite artists who are highly respected in the comics industry - maybe not Neal level but some could argue at Neal level:

John Byrne

George Perez

Frank Miller

Jim Lee

If any of these gentlemen will offer $200 fully inked head/bust sketches, traced/lightboxed from their legacy works or iconic panels - I would definitely consider it!  It seems Neal is the only legendary artist now offering this service - so good on him!

On 11/12/2020 at 1:39 AM, stinkininkin said:

I had no idea Adams light-boxes his commissioned head sketches! That's fascinating. Collectors are cool with this (because it keeps up availability and prices reasonable)? Are there other artists who do this?

Neal is pretty open about this during his live auctions. He even admits to not filling in the blacks himself. He also swears by the Zig Kuretake Hikkei pen, because it can do what brushes and nibs do but saves him 50% of the time since he doesn't have to keep dipping back and forth to and inkwell. In short, Neal Adams has mastered a method to be more productive than he ever has been in his entire career. He draws hundreds of those head sketches and quality is very consistent. And you are getting hand drawn Neal Adams for $200. Some second-tier artists charge more, but Neal isn't even first tier -he is living legend status.. so even if lightboced or a glorified signature, it's still worth it for so many of his fans!

On 11/8/2020 at 1:34 AM, Blastaar said:

I do question how he is able to crank out so many of those head sketches each week. I imagine he has a set template he goes to for characters. I love his art and have a bit of everything from him. I asked for a head sketch of Mr Sinister and it looked exactly like a google image head shot. Was a bit disappointed and was hoping for some originality. 😔

Yes, he has a template and lightboxes over it, so that it is still all original art.  For characters not on file, Neal has said he used Google search.  For the price those headshots are going (quality is still awesome), they are relatively affordable and should be considered more like a glorified signature, or an upgraded remarque.  It really doesn't matter if it's lightboxed or Googled for me - it's still Neal's handwork.  But your mileage may vary.

On 11/3/2020 at 4:12 PM, Ghazi said:

Hi All,

Not sure if you guys could help me out....Has anyone bought any oriignal art from the Neal Adams Store within the last year or so? I bought a piece of art but never received a paper COA. If you did reoieve one with your art could you let me know what it looks like?

Should I be insisting on one for future reference? Thank you so much. Its just I am quite new to Original Art.

Stay safe and healthy wherever you are.

The more recent purchases come with certificates that are optional and cost $10 to $20. 

In the past, there were certificates attached to the back of the art with Neal's thumbprint but Neal's studio has stopped doing that claiming there are fakes floating around.  Personally, I don't buy that reason.  I just think Neal has been so much more efficient and works a lot faster - while he works on so many pieces at once - it might be hard to certificate all of them.  Again, that's just my theory which is different from their official stance.

Nevertheless, current purchases from the store either have: (1) no certificate, (2) certificate with hologram sticker, or (3) hologram sticker stuck directly to the back of the art.  I have purchased a lot from Neal this past year and have chosen option #3.  Personally, I don't see the point of a certificate separate from the art, but then that's just me.

Hope this helps answer your query.