Jaydogrules

Thank you for correcting your statement, and clarifying what you meant to say. I aim to please. -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature. You say such weird, absolutist things. Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years. As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"... Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"? What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so. Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u That answered nothing. What "decades of precedent" are you referring to, where a later printing was TEMPORARILY more valuable than the first printing, then "ceded its positioning" to the first...? Hmmm...? That's your opinion. The market disagrees with you. Again. At least he is consistent. Yes I am. Consistently right. Let's see, right about hulk 181 being worth more than a cerebus 1 in a 9.2 in 2014? Check. Right about hulk 271 going down in value as more and more of the corrected CGC labels made it into circulation ? Check. Right about no one being able to show that a significant amount more than 100 copies of sandman 8b being verifiably in existence (I think you found about 52 so far)? Check. Right about additional copies of asm 301 hitting the census in 9.8? Check so far. Right about more copies of asm 301 hitting the market in a 9.8 and crushing the value ? Check. One copy couldn't even get a one bid of $750 the other day, with five other 9.8 copies on the market. Right about asm 361 second print not selling for what it does now as additional copies hit the census and come to market, as the first printing continues to rise, a-la NM 98? Probably right. But as RMA stated, we can only wait and see for that one. (thumbs u -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature. You say such weird, absolutist things. Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years. As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"... Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"? What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so. Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u That answered nothing. What "decades of precedent" are you referring to, where a later printing was TEMPORARILY more valuable than the first printing, then "ceded its positioning" to the first...? Hmmm...? That's your opinion. The market disagrees with you. Again. Does "the market" include CGC, which does not see fit to even mention anything about it on the label ? We've discussed this before. The CGC label notes are COURTESIES, they are NOT part of the service. As such, what appears (and does not appear) in those notes should *not* be construed as definitive of ANYTHING...an argument you, yourself, inadvertently made regarding Hulk #271, whereby people were being "misled" by the fact that it used to say "first appearance of Rocket Raccoon." I think you need a new chair. Now, please answer the question: What "decades of precedent" showed later printings being worth more than first printings, then "ceding those positionings" to the first printings...? I provided "one" example of a later printing ceding value to the original printing". The "decades of precedent" refers to later printings of key books being worth less than the first prints. If you believe other wise I have a GRR of fantastic four #1 I'd like to sell you for $15,000. -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature. You say such weird, absolutist things. Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years. As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"... Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"? What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so. Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u And Web 118 does not constitute a "key first appearance". Sorry. -J. How does it not? It sells for more raw than a MOS #18 first print does. It sells for significantly more as a 9.8 slab, then a MOS #18 does. (double to triple). I'd argue it's a bigger key than MOS #18 but that is not this discussion. Jim If you are referring to Ben Reilly, the character, his first appearance was actually in the 70's, and it is hardly a "key". He has also appeared as different versions of spiderman, spider carnage, etc. While those are interesting story lines, they are not "keys" either. Nor would yet another one of his incarnations as scarlet spider be considered a "key". Maybe if they drop him in a movie, that will change. Or more likely his actual first appearance in the 70's will take on a greater significance. As it stands now though, not so much. But I get it, everything is a "key" nowadays, or a "key" to somebody. Even asm 361 is a very light "key" in the grand scheme of things. -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature. You say such weird, absolutist things. Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years. As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"... Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"? What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so. Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u That answered nothing. What "decades of precedent" are you referring to, where a later printing was TEMPORARILY more valuable than the first printing, then "ceded its positioning" to the first...? Hmmm...? That's your opinion. The market disagrees with you. Again. Does "the market" include CGC, which does not see fit to even mention anything about it on the label ? Seems more to me that you disagree with CGC. Maybe you should write them a 40 page letter telling them why they are wrong. Hmmmm... and from where I sit, you have been shown to be wrong in every single little debate we have had. Every single one. Keep swinging for the fences though bud. -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature. You say such weird, absolutist things. Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years. As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"... Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"? What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so. Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u And Web 118 does not constitute a "key first appearance". Sorry. -J.

I find this argument specious. The reverse is the suggestion you have no second prints, hence your stance. (thumbs u Correct. I have no second prints. I only collect key first appearances/origins and actually rare variants. See sig line below. -J.

The market is an organic, living, breathing entity, not a chemistry experiment. As such, you can only observe what is, and has been, and not what might be. This I agree with. But like I said earlier, I'm a numbers man, and I like to play the odds. (thumbs u And I'll let you field the question, if you wish, about why the scans in my sig line do not appear uniform, since we've already been down that "classy" road already. -J.

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today. Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print. Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story. And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios. Jim Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. I do not find the comparison to asm 361 to be persuasive. Asm 361 is a bona fide first (full) appearance and is a generally accepted copper age key. Hence why the first printing is valuable. This is not a situation where we are talking about a first printing of a fairly meaningless or marginal book, that got a reprint for whatever reason with a different or cooler cover. Asm 361 first print is valuable and the second print is valuable because the first print is valuable- ie, it is the second printing of the first appearance of a popular copper age character. My only point is that as additional copies of the second printing hit the census, in all likelihood, the second printing will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing value-wise, which is the case 99.999999% of the time. To state or believe otherwise, quite simply, would run counter to decades of precedent. -J.

+1 This. (thumbs u -J.

Thank you for the input Jim. However I am struggling to find any "key first appearances" in any of those walking dead books, or the Web of spiderman book. I will admit to having read none of them, though CGC does not denote any "key" first appearances on any of the labels. So it does not appear these are an apples to apples comparison. Whetteon, the GPA numbers are misleading and do not tell the whole story. As of now there are 15-20 copies of asm 361 second printing available, most of them are raw. As additional copies hit the census, the perception of "rarity" will evaporate. Very little in the copper age is "rare". Since this is apparently the only basis for it's value, prices will moderate, if not decline, while the first printing will inevitable march onward and upward. That is history's pattern. I'm an odds man and I like to play them safe. Asm 361 is the "key". It's second printing is an interesting curiosity, at best. If you're an avid collector you'll want both. If you just want the first appearance you'll only want/need the first printing. Most people fall in the latter category. -J.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded: At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead. (thumbs u If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u -J. Be careful. 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.' There are a number of examples now where later printings are more desirable. You may end up being right, but I could see things going he other way. "Past performance is the best predictor of future success.". Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18). -J. You've just qualified the argument beyond the parameters that 500 stated. And why is MOS #18 "clearly anomalous"? What if "Hush" becomes a very popular character? Batman #608 second print is worth substantially more than the first. Nearly 30 years ago, the 2nd print of Adventurers #1 was worth much more, because it was the first appearance of Elf Warrior. It is not without precedent. So that's a "none" from RMA. And there's nothing "qualified" about the comparison at all. Hush first appeared in batman 609 actually, unless you count his cover appearance on the 608RRP (which I personally do), and that is by far the most valuable book in the run. MOS 18 is clearly anomalous because it is the only outlier example of a later printing being "worth" more than the first printing, and there is no guarantee that one random exception will even hold over the long term either. The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell. -J. Not a first appearance, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Hulk #377 3rd print here. Much rarer and more expensive than the dollar box status of the 1st and 2nd prints. 2nd, 3rd, etc printings are becoming the new RRP of the copper age. The fact that this comic has a market value so close to the 1st printing really speaks for itself. I think it's silly to discount something like the Man of Steel issue, because there's nothing in particular that's out of the ordinary about that. The Hulk issue, however, was printed years after the first print, which seems to me to be an odd case. There has been some discussion about one of the Ghost Rider reprints being tough to find in high grade. Does that issue in general command a premium compared to the first print. Also, not Copper, but some of the new Valiant titles have second prints of the first issue that go for more, especially X-O #1. Limiting the discussion to an apples to apples comparison of later printings of the "key" first appearance of a character, MOS 18 is indeed the one and only outlier example that exists of a later printing being worth more at the current time. However, like the ASM 300 chromium that was at one time worth more than the first printing of asm 300, there is no guarantee that will always be the case, particularly if they drop doomsday in one of the movies. In order for a hypothesis to be proven correct, the results need to be repeatable. Citing "one" example out of thousands does more to discount your theory than prove it. Believing that the asm 361 second print will somehow buck history and turn out to be the "second" example is probably more wishful thinking than possibility. -J.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded: At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead. (thumbs u If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u -J. Be careful. 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.' There are a number of examples now where later printings are more desirable. You may end up being right, but I could see things going he other way. "Past performance is the best predictor of future success.". Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18). -J. You've just qualified the argument beyond the parameters that 500 stated. And why is MOS #18 "clearly anomalous"? What if "Hush" becomes a very popular character? Batman #608 second print is worth substantially more than the first. Nearly 30 years ago, the 2nd print of Adventurers #1 was worth much more, because it was the first appearance of Elf Warrior. It is not without precedent. So that's a "none" from RMA. And there's nothing "qualified" about the comparison at all. Hush first appeared in batman 609 actually, unless you count his cover appearance on the 608RRP (which I personally do), and that is by far the most valuable book in the run. MOS 18 is clearly anomalous because it is the only outlier example of a later printing being "worth" more than the first printing, and there is no guarantee that one random exception will even hold over the long term either. The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell. -J. Not a first appearance, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Hulk #377 3rd print here. Much rarer and more expensive than the dollar box status of the 1st and 2nd prints. ...for the reason in bold. The first appearance of carnage is what makes asm 361 relevant and valuable. The second print of that very popular first printing has no relevance beyond its current perception of rarity. However it too had a very sizable print run, and they will find their way to the census if they maintain a modicum of value. Digging up one or two oddball examples out of hundreds or thousands does not make a compelling case for your position. Again, there is very little in the copper age that is actually "rare". If you want to talk about genuinely rare books, I will meet you over in the GA section. (thumbs u -J.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded: At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead. (thumbs u If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u -J. Be careful. 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.' There are a number of examples now where later printings are more desirable. You may end up being right, but I could see things going he other way. "Past performance is the best predictor of future success.". Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18). -J. You've just qualified the argument beyond the parameters that 500 stated. And why is MOS #18 "clearly anomalous"? What if "Hush" becomes a very popular character? Batman #608 second print is worth substantially more than the first. Nearly 30 years ago, the 2nd print of Adventurers #1 was worth much more, because it was the first appearance of Elf Warrior. It is not without precedent. So that's a "none" from RMA. And there's nothing "qualified" about the comparison at all. Hush first appeared in batman 609 actually, unless you count his cover appearance on the 608RRP (which I personally do), and that is by far the most valuable book in the run. MOS 18 is clearly anomalous because it is the only outlier example of a later printing being "worth" more than the first printing, and there is no guarantee that one random exception will even hold over the long term either. The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell. -J.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded: At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead. (thumbs u If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u -J. Be careful. 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.' There are a number of examples now where later printings are more desirable. You may end up being right, but I could see things going he other way. "Past performance is the best predictor of future success.". Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18). -J.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded: At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead. (thumbs u If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u -J.

The Goblin killed her the moment he threw her off the bridge. Spidey just wasn't successful in saving her. Had he done nothing, she would have been dead as soon as she hit the water. That's one way to look at it. Though spidey himself still took some personal responsibility and if I remember correctly, he later ended up practicing different methods for stopping someone mid-fall so that their own momentum wouldn't snap their neck again. A slick lawyer would argue that spiderman was in fact negligent, and spidey's defense would argue that the goblin was the intervening factor. A jury could reasonably find some contributory negligence on spiderman's part, but with minimal damages for liability. Okay now I'm being a little too nerdy even for me. -J.

You're the one who made the claim, first that there were only around 30 copies, then upping it to around 100, of the Sandman #8 variant still extant. Based on what...? The census numbers. You can't have it both ways. Seriously, let it go already it's apples and oranges. Not only are you mis-quoting me, you are making statements in a vacuum. Sandman 8b IS a rare comic from the copper age, and worth several hundreds of dollars in low grade raw because of that, and the fact that it is a key first appearance in the series. Neither asm 361 second print nor asm 301 , any print, in 9.8 or otherwise are "rare", and never will be. This non-argument you have been attempting to make across multiple threads and sub-forums has grown tiresome. Let's please change the channel. -J.

Yeah, I hate when people equate census numbers to extant copies. I wish Death would claim those people. Yes those who do should certainly die at least 100 deaths. -J.

The same thing happened for awhile with the asm 300 chromium reprint. For awhile that was actually "more" valuable than the first printing. Now it's not close. The second printing of asm 361 isn't a scarce comic at all. I fully expect the first printing to pull away from the second printing sooner rather than later for good, as happened with 300. Pretty much everybody wants the first printing of the first appearance of a major character, whereas "second printings" are a bit more of a niche sub-market with a smaller collector base. -J. I'm sorry, but some of what you said above doesn't hold up to scrutiny. First of all,the ASM #300 chromium reprint is not the ASM #300 second print. It came out 10 years later and is officially Marvel Collectibles Classic #1. The ASM #361 second print came out a month after the first print. That's a completely different comparison. Secondly, The ASM #361 second print is extremely scarce compared first print in universal 9.8. There are 917 blue 9.8's of the first print on the census, compared to only 47 blue 9.8's of the second print. I've been watching second prints on eBay and they don't come up much often. When they do they're bought within hours or sooner. And I didn't say the chromium 300 was the "second printing", now did I illustrious? And I only used the chromium reprint as an example because it is in fact a verifiably low print run reprint with only around 3500 copies I believe. Further, please don't make the same mistake so many other do by equating currently low census numbers with "rarity". Very little from the copper age is actually "rare". If these second printings hold any sustained value, more and more will hit the census, and that will only hasten the price disparity between the first print. There are usually a couple available at any given time as is. (thumbs u -J.

If it were just a choice between goblin and doc ock I would give the edge to doc ock. Goblin didn't technically kill Gwen Stacey, spidey did. Villains have thrown damsels off from buildings countless times before, so that doesn't make goblin unique. What made the storyline different and especially poignant is that Peter parker technically killed her. Whereas doc ock "killed" Peter parker. You can't really top that. And Venom is just plain cool. Well at least the Venom in the earlier storylines. -J.

The same thing happened for awhile with the asm 300 chromium reprint. For awhile that was actually "more" valuable than the first printing. Now it's not close. The second printing of asm 361 isn't a scarce comic at all. I fully expect the first printing to pull away from the second printing sooner rather than later for good, as happened with 300. Pretty much everybody wants the first printing of the first appearance of a major character, whereas "second printings" are a bit more of a niche sub-market with a smaller collector base. -J.

+1 I would put Doc Ock and Venom neck and neck as Spidey's top villains. They could have milked that story line in SS for years. I really wish they would have kept it going longer. So many ways they could have gone with it. I was bummed to hear they were rebooting the whole title so quickly. -J.

Haha, that is funny. All of the images I found were from Heritage. Thanks for posting and joining the club! No kidding ? I don't recall it being a heritage book, but either way it just goes to show how small the comic book collecting world really can be. Glad to be in the club ! -J.

Nice looking book there! Congratulations! -J.