Showcase #4

[tonytiger]

It is kind of funny reading the comments either way regarding SC #4 and SC #22. I wonder how similar they are to the Marvel fanboy comments re: AF #15 and FF #1 a few years ago?

 

There definitely is a battle here between the two books for the top spot. SC4 is not giving up yet... But SC4 dollars in 2006 could have bought you a lot of SC22

 

 

Why are we allowing a guy who has Showcase22 in his ID to post in a thread about Showcase 4?

 

[tth2]

It is kind of funny reading the comments either way regarding SC #4 and SC #22. I wonder how similar they are to the Marvel fanboy comments re: AF #15 and FF #1 a few years ago?

There's a big difference. Spiderman was the most popular Marvel character by far.

 

Although GL may be more popular than Flash now, he's not even close to being the most popular DC character.

[Flash105]

DC is just a different animal than Marvel. You have Batman and Superman but the action there is in the gold. There is not the rabid desire for the the Silver stuff especially on Superman. So DC is left with Flash, GL, Showcase, B&B, and JLA to lead the way in Silver. SC 4 was the gold standard and a book I really want but I wonder if will be a liquid book to sell in 10-15 years or will it be the Whiz 2 of the silver age.

 

Since that 8.5 sold for 28K what do you think a solid copy of an 8.0 should go for.

[showcase22gr1959]

DC is just a different animal than Marvel. You have Batman and Superman but the action there is in the gold. There is not the rabid desire for the the Silver stuff especially on Superman. So DC is left with Flash, GL, Showcase, B&B, and JLA to lead the way in Silver. SC 4 was the gold standard and a book I really want but I wonder if will be a liquid book to sell in 10-15 years or will it be the Whiz 2 of the silver age.

 

Since that 8.5 sold for 28K what do you think a solid copy of an 8.0 should go for.

 

$12K to $14K will be a good price to add a copy. Being realistic, it will probably fetch 15K-17K. This book is a blue chip for DC Silver Age, and you can't go wrong for the long term.

[kimik]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

 

[JohnT]

There is not the rabid desire for the the Silver stuff especially on Superman. So DC is left with Flash, GL, Showcase, B&B, and JLA to lead the way in Silver. SC 4 was the gold standard and a book I really want but I wonder if will be a liquid book to sell in 10-15 years or will it be the Whiz 2 of the silver age.

 

I'm rabid.

[JohnT]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

 

What age are the guys (or gals) who are paying these crazy prices for 22s?

 

I'm betting they're over 35.

[tth2]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

[adamstrange]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

Well stated. (thumbs u

[JohnT]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

Plus the historical significance of SC 4 dwarfs SC 22 even more than Action 1 beats Tec 27 on that count.

[tth2]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

Well stated. (thumbs u

Us guys in our mid-40s need to stick together!

[adamstrange]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

Well stated. (thumbs u

Us guys in our mid-40s need to stick together!

 

29 and holding

[showcase22gr1959]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

I agree with kimik that Showcase 22 has a lot more potential. The movie is the wild card and can make or break it for SC22. SC22's potential is in the unknown zone and is very speculative. Showcase 22 gets disproportionately expensive 6.0+. If you look at the prices for SC22 in 4.0-8.0, it is worth more than Avengers 1, BB28, Flash 105, TOS 39, JLA 1, JIM 83, SC8 in those grades. Once SC22 reaches 5.5+, the prices begins to be priced like ASM 1. If a SC22 exist in 9.2 it could be 100k or a 9.4 be 150K+.

[kimik]

Tim - Despite the fact that Spidey was the most popular Marvel character (although I would argue by the late 90s that Wolverine surpassed Spidey) FF #1 was still the higher priced book long after its peak popularity in the 60s. It was only recently that AF #15 surpassed it. I would argue that this is more due to a passing of the proverbial torch between generations of collectors than anything else. For the handful of 50+ year old collectors I know, FF is still the key title in their eyes. However, for those of us below that age who did not grow up with the FF during those peak years Spidey and AF #15 is the big book.

 

The same thing is likely going to happen with DCs. While SC #4 was the big book in the eyes of a lot of long time DC collectors, but I think that SC #22 has more long term potential. For most of us under 35 that collect DCs, Batman and GL are the more popular superhero characters, with Supes (most likely) in 3rd place. As we discussed in the SC #22 thread, GL is a character that Marvel fanboys like as well so there is more crossover here than with the Flash. Maybe it is the similarity to Iron Man (i.e. regular humans with powerful accesories)?

I'm not 50+ years old and I view FF as the key title too!

 

You could be right about SC 22 passing SC 4, but I'm not ready to buy it yet. Particularly because equal grade comparisons aren't valid at this point because the highest SC 22 is a 9.0, whereas the highest SC 4 is a 9.6. This causes SC 22 to be disproportionately expensive in 9.0 and a SC 4 to be disproportionately inexpensive in 9.0. If someone finds a 9.6 or 9.4 SC 22 and it eclipses the price of the 9.6 SC 4, I'll start believing.

 

Plus, even if SC 22 passes SC 4, who's to say it's permanent? Tec 27 passed Action 1 for a while, but in the long run, historical significance won out. I don't think that GL so dwarfs Flash in popularity, in comparison to Spidey and FF, that SC 22 will necessarily stay more valuable.

 

I agree with kimik that Showcase 22 has a lot more potential. The movie is the wild card and can make or break it for SC22. SC22's potential is in the unknown zone and is very speculative. Showcase 22 gets disproportionately expensive 6.0+. If you look at the prices for SC22 in 4.0-8.0, it is worth more than Avengers 1, BB28, Flash 105, TOS 39, JLA 1, JIM 83, SC8 in those grades. Once SC22 reaches 5.5+, the prices begins to be priced like ASM 1. If a SC22 exist in 9.2 it could be 100k or a 9.4 be 150K+.

 

Okay, here is my attempt to answer everything:

 

Tim - Sorry, I did not mean that FF #1 was not a key, just that the characters and book were no longer THE KEY in the eyes of the majority of Marvel collectors. The handful of old school collectors (including you, Dave and Mel ) I know view it as more important since they had more attachment to the title than to Spidey. However, the next generation of Marvel collectors has clearly shifted towards AF #15.

 

WRT apples to apples, my guess is that right now a 9.6 SC #22 would sell for more than the 9.6 SC #4 did. It looks like SC #4 has plateaued value wise even at the top end as the 9.6 SC #4 only went for $19K+change more this spring than the 9.4 SC #4 did in 2008. Granted, at the time the 9.4 was the "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" (which shows the risk in playing that game with even 9.4 DCs), but I still thought that the 9.6 would have topped $200K. Unless we see a major increase in popularity for the Flash (which I don't see coming even though I like the character myself), I think that SC #22 will continue to drift upward while SC #4 stagnates/drops a bit.

 

Another thing that hurts SC #4 a bit is the fact that some of the big Flash runs have been liquidated over the past couple of years and taking even a couple of BSDs out of any SA DC market will hurt.

 

showcase22gr1959 (sorry, brain cramp on remembering your name right now ) - The movie has definitely helped spike the prices in SC #22 right now, but it was long overdue (along with B&B #28) for a big uptick since it was undervalued. Now, I think that there is still room in 8.0+ copies but under that it is going to be slow and more normal price growth (or even a pull back). Personally, I do not see much more upside in value closer to the movie now since it shot up so high so fast. Maybe I will be wrong with this assumption, but that is how it looks to a couple of other boardies who speculated correctly with it as well.

[adamstrange]

I view FF as more important because historically and creatively it was. At the same time, I'm happy to acknowledge the greater popularity of Spidey.

 

Regarding GL it's hard to predict $100K+ sales as there are so few of those (2) for SA DC. I see a lot of intense interest in GL related to the movie which, with it's relatively small supply, has caused the rapid escalation in price. But it's still hard to say what it means to the collectors who pay the big bucks. Perhaps a straight private treaty sale to Mark Wilson would yield that since he now has the Newsboys but an auction would be much harder to predict.

 

The one aspect that Flash has going for him is that he is the archetype of a superhero with speed -- his name and the association with the character are part of the culture. Green Lantern? Not so much, nor does he have the teen vote like Spidey. FWIW, when I dropped off comics for nieces and nephews this summer my niece asked me for me Flash's. It's the only superhero (besides GA Plastic Man) that she was interested in.

[kimik]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

 

The movie plays a part in SC #22 prices, but the lack of supply in nice shape has probably held it back more than anything. It was a book (along with B&B #28) that was long overdue for a price bump and the movie just forced those of us who were holding out for a 6.0 or better copy to finally bite the bullet at the same time the speculators waded in. I have since sold all 3 of the copies I picked up since they were sub-6.0 and the prices I was offered were too good to pass up. However, if I had a 6.0+ copy I would not have sold it since we now can see how hard they are to find in that grade. This is probably a good time to snap up 7.0 and better copies of B&B #28 since it will be the next DC SA key to see a bump up.

 

It will be interesting to see what the bidding is like if a 9.6 copy of SC #22 ever surfaces. My guess is that there is enough crossover interest from the Marvel fanboys that it would top SC #4 and Mark might not end up as the high bidder.

 

FWIW, with DC heroes both of my kids like Batman best, followed by Green Lantern and then Wonder Woman for my Daughter and Superman for my son.

[silvermine]

You are one chatty guy....

[adamstrange]

It will be interesting to see what the bidding is like if a 9.6 copy of SC #22 ever surfaces. My guess is that there is enough crossover interest from the Marvel fanboys that it would top SC #4 and Mark might not end up as the high bidder.

Why would the Marvel fanboys be interested in GL? Is there really interest beyond short term speculation?

 

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul.

I agree that importance frequently does not correlate to highest priced.

[tth2]

Tim - Sorry, I did not mean that FF #1 was not a key, just that the characters and book were no longer THE KEY in the eyes of the majority of Marvel collectors. The handful of old school collectors (including you, Dave and Mel ) I know view it as more important since they had more attachment to the title than to Spidey. However, the next generation of Marvel collectors has clearly shifted towards AF #15.

I was just giving you a hard time, Ryan. While old school collectors such as myself will always view FF as the more important book, I don't think we can deny the reality that AF 15 is the more valuable book, and is likely to remain so. I don't think that FF 1 is even the second most valuable Marvel anymore.

 

WRT apples to apples, my guess is that right now a 9.6 SC #22 would sell for more than the 9.6 SC #4 did. It looks like SC #4 has plateaued value wise even at the top end as the 9.6 SC #4 only went for $19K+change more this spring than the 9.4 SC #4 did in 2008. Granted, at the time the 9.4 was the "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" (which shows the risk in playing that game with even 9.4 DCs), but I still thought that the 9.6 would have topped $200K. Unless we see a major increase in popularity for the Flash (which I don't see coming even though I like the character myself), I think that SC #22 will continue to drift upward while SC #4 stagnates/drops a bit.

Actually, the 9.6 copy was already known to be in existence at the time the 9.4 copy sold on ComicConnect.

 

I think the 9.6 sale price was an anomaly. I'm sure the max bid on the winning bid was significantly higher, but for some reason no underbidder materialized.

 

But I also think it illustrates how bidders can disappear once you start getting into the 6-figure range, and that the law of big numbers says that you can't always just extrapolate prices for higher grade books from prices for lower grade books. For instance, while I might be a player for a book in the mid-five figures, I'm out of the running once it gets above that because I'm simply unwilling to sink that kind of money into a single book (unless I knew I could immediately flip it for more).

 

Another thing that hurts SC #4 a bit is the fact that some of the big Flash runs have been liquidated over the past couple of years and taking even a couple of BSDs out of any SA DC market will hurt.

I can't speak for Rube11 or Gary Keller, and certainly not saying I'm a BSD (I think SA DC and BSD are mutually exclusive terms), but whether I kept my Flash run or not would have had zero impact on my willingness to go big after a SC 4.

 

[tth2]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.