Showcase #4

[Flash105]

I would have to agree that SC 4 transcends and does not require someone to be a HG collector of the Flash series. I think there are plenty of collectors out there that specialize in keys and this is still a key even if it has lost some of it luster. I would just hate for the book to go the path of Adventure 247. In 1982 that was the most valuable silver age book. And now you can't drum up interest in the book at all.

[JohnT]

I would have to agree that SC 4 transcends and does not require someone to be a HG collector of the Flash series. I think there are plenty of collectors out there that specialize in keys and this is still a key even if it has lost some of it luster. I would just hate for the book to go the path of Adventure 247. In 1982 that was the most valuable silver age book. And now you can't drum up interest in the book at all.

 

I just don't see the book that started the Silver Age seriously fading at any point.

 

(I'd be pretty interested in a 247!)

[tonytiger]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.

 

 

Well said.

[thedude]

....Adventure 247. In 1982 that was the most valuable silver age book.

 

really? wow.

[VintageComics]

....Adventure 247. In 1982 that was the most valuable silver age book.

 

really? wow.

 

Looking back I'm amazed at how some stuff has changed.

 

Showcase #4 was a big book.

All Star was a must have run.

Adventure Comics and Superboy were back then almost what X-men and Wolverine are today.

 

It was really different.

The Showcase #4 part was just tongue in cheek.

 

 

R.

 

 

[kimik]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.

 

 

Well said.

 

We should get Rick to chime in here, but I still think that Action #1 would be worth close to the same amount even with more copies available. That is one book that there is more than enough demand for IMHO. If I recall correctly, it looks like some of the same copies of MC #1 are just being recirculated as interest in the book wanes. MC #1 introduces.................Subby, the GA Human Torch, the Angel and Ka-Zar. If it had introduced Captain America instead, I would bet that the prices would not be dropping like they currently are.

 

Look at Hulk #181 as an example of how much a characters popularity helps with the price. Even though there are more than enough copies to meet demand, prices are fairly stable and continue to creep up. At one time 9.8 was the top copy, but prices are still up there even though there is a 9.9 now.

 

 

[kimik]

You are one chatty guy....

 

Had some time to burn on the computer last night (and now at coffee). I was hoping that old time FF collector comment would drag you or Dave out to play.

[piper]

You are one chatty guy....

 

Had some time to burn on the computer last night (and now at coffee). I was hoping that old time FF collector comment would drag you or Dave out to play.

 

AF15 =

 

FF1 =

 

With respect to Ryan's statement re: Marvel Zombies being fans of Green Lantern, I'm definitely a fan of the character. There's Cosmic storylines, a cool costume, Gil Kane artwork...what's not to like?

 

 

[kimik]

You are one chatty guy....

 

Had some time to burn on the computer last night (and now at coffee). I was hoping that old time FF collector comment would drag you or Dave out to play.

 

AF15 =

 

FF1 =

 

With respect to Ryan's statement re: Marvel Zombies being fans of Green Lantern, I'm definitely a fan of the character. There's Cosmic storylines, a cool costume, Gil Kane artwork...what's not to like?

 

 

The Gil Kane artwork.

[G.A.tor]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.

 

 

Well said.

 

We should get Rick to chime in here, but I still think that Action #1 would be worth close to the same amount even with more copies available. That is one book that there is more than enough demand for IMHO. If I recall correctly, it looks like some of the same copies of MC #1 are just being recirculated as interest in the book wanes. MC #1 introduces.................Subby, the GA Human Torch, the Angel and Ka-Zar. If it had introduced Captain America instead, I would bet that the prices would not be dropping like they currently are.

 

Look at Hulk #181 as an example of how much a characters popularity helps with the price. Even though there are more than enough copies to meet demand, prices are fairly stable and continue to creep up. At one time 9.8 was the top copy, but prices are still up there even though there is a 9.9 now.

 

really tough to know... but the fact that in all these years no Action 1's in the marvel 1 mold have materialized, I suspect it is not a relevant comparison

 

we might just as easily say that if Marvel 1's were in the same available boat as action 1's, that prices might be WAY up there too

[JohnT]

To put some perspective on the SC 4 vs. SC 22 debate, consider the folowing comparison.

 

SC 4:

 

--Widely accepted as first SA book, ushering in the modern age of superheroes.

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Published in 1956.

--Fairly scarce, especially in HG.

123 universal copies

193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above

12 8.0 and above

4 9.0 and above.

--Established mega key, has been for years. Few issues added to census in last year. High percentage of existing copies probably slabbed.

--Price flat

--Other Showcase appearances command high prices.

--No movie imminent

--Not being hyped by boardies.

--Collectors not rushing to own a copy.

 

SC 22

 

--Early SA key

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Published in 1959.

--Not uncommon, but very scarce in high grade

210 universal copies,

268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above

9 8.0 and above

2 9.0 and above

--Established key, but a mega key less than a year. Many issues added to census in last year. May be comparatively low percentage of copies slabbed?

--Price has risen sharply.

--Other Showcase appearances not high-priced.

--Movie coming soon.

--Heavily hyped by boardies.

--Collectors desperately trying to get a copy.

 

I think an outside observer would look at these facts and be skeptical that SC 22 will surpass SC 4 in value over the long haul. Many of the factors playing into the rise in SC 22 have hype and speculation written all over them. I'm not saying the book is sitting on a bubble, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it was (HG being the exception).

 

I'll make some predictions.

 

In 10 years there will be 3 times as many universal copies of SC 22 compared to SC 4.

In 10 years there will be more HG (8.0 and above) copies of SC 22 than SC 4.

In 10 years any copy of SC 22 will be significantly less valuable than a similarly graded SC 4, with the possible exception of 9.0 and above if few copies of 22 in those grades surface.

 

But then what do I know.

 

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

Very good comparison...Here's a percentage total. If you notice, Showcase 4 is harder to find in 6.0 and above. But if you compare Showcase 4 and Showcase 22 7.5 and above, SC22 is clearly very rare above 7.5. In my view, Showcase 22 is worth more than Showcase 4 from 7.5+. Also, Showcase 4 enjoyed a great price increase in the 1990's. Showcase 22 is speculative because of the GL movie and we do not know the full potential.

 

Showcase 4

123 universal copies

 

Percentage of 193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above 12.95%

16 7.5 and above 8.290%

12 8.0 and above 6.217%

4 9.0 and above. 2.0275%

 

Showcase 22

210 universal copies,

 

Percentage of 268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above 13.805%

13 7.5 and above 4.850%

9 8.0 and above 3.358%

2 9.0 and above 0.0746% (less than 1%)

[tth2]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.

 

 

Well said.

 

We should get Rick to chime in here, but I still think that Action #1 would be worth close to the same amount even with more copies available. That is one book that there is more than enough demand for IMHO. If I recall correctly, it looks like some of the same copies of MC #1 are just being recirculated as interest in the book wanes. MC #1 introduces.................Subby, the GA Human Torch, the Angel and Ka-Zar. If it had introduced Captain America instead, I would bet that the prices would not be dropping like they currently are.

 

Look at Hulk #181 as an example of how much a characters popularity helps with the price. Even though there are more than enough copies to meet demand, prices are fairly stable and continue to creep up. At one time 9.8 was the top copy, but prices are still up there even though there is a 9.9 now.

 

really tough to know... but the fact that in all these years no Action 1's in the marvel 1 mold have materialized, I suspect it is not a relevant comparison

 

we might just as easily say that if Marvel 1's were in the same available boat as action 1's, that prices might be WAY up there too

I think they would be much more valuable if really nice copies didn't keep coming on the market.

 

To respond to Ryan's point, I'm not saying Action 1 would become a cheap book. It would undoubtedly still be a 6-figure book in grade. I just don't think the price levels would be what they are if the market were flooded with them.

 

Hulk 181 is different because there are a lot of collectors who can afford 3 or 4 figures for a book, so the demand axis is pretty big. When you get into the number of collectors who can afford 6 figures, particularly into the $200-300K range, I think the demand axis would get overwhelmed if the same volume of 6.0 and higher Action 1s kept coming on the market.

[showcase22gr1959]

FF #1 and SC #4 are definitely the more important books historically, but that does not equate to increasing value over the long haul. Popularity of the character does. Even Marvel Comics #1 is suffering from that as far as GA keys go.

The stagnation or decline of MC #1 has very little to do with the popularity of the characters. It is principally the fact that the marketplace is lousy with high grade copies and has been for the past few years.

 

If 8.0-9.0 copies of Action 1 came up as frequently as they have for MC 1, I seriously doubt that a 6.0 copy of Action 1 would be selling for $317K.

 

 

Well said.

 

We should get Rick to chime in here, but I still think that Action #1 would be worth close to the same amount even with more copies available. That is one book that there is more than enough demand for IMHO. If I recall correctly, it looks like some of the same copies of MC #1 are just being recirculated as interest in the book wanes. MC #1 introduces.................Subby, the GA Human Torch, the Angel and Ka-Zar. If it had introduced Captain America instead, I would bet that the prices would not be dropping like they currently are.

 

Look at Hulk #181 as an example of how much a characters popularity helps with the price. Even though there are more than enough copies to meet demand, prices are fairly stable and continue to creep up. At one time 9.8 was the top copy, but prices are still up there even though there is a 9.9 now.

 

really tough to know... but the fact that in all these years no Action 1's in the marvel 1 mold have materialized, I suspect it is not a relevant comparison

 

we might just as easily say that if Marvel 1's were in the same available boat as action 1's, that prices might be WAY up there too

I think they would be much more valuable if really nice copies didn't keep coming on the market.

 

To respond to Ryan's point, I'm not saying Action 1 would become a cheap book. It would undoubtedly still be a 6-figure book in grade. I just don't think the price levels would be what they are if the market were flooded with them.

 

Hulk 181 is different because there are a lot of collectors who can afford 3 or 4 figures for a book, so the demand axis is pretty big. When you get into the number of collectors who can afford 6 figures, particularly into the $200-300K range, I think the demand axis would get overwhelmed if the same volume of 6.0 and higher Action 1s kept coming on the market.

 

Back around 2000, I have contacted Jay Parrino regarding Action 1 and Marvel Comics 1. He had equal amounts of both, but no Action 1 above 6.0. How many people out there are more interested in collecting pieces and wraps of Action 1 than Marvel Comics 1? More collectors would want pieces and wraps of Action 1 because it will be more desirable. There will be a lot more people throwing 100K for an Action 1 than Marvel Comics 1.

 

 

[Flash105]

To put some perspective on the SC 4 vs. SC 22 debate, consider the folowing comparison.

 

SC 4:

 

--Widely accepted as first SA book, ushering in the modern age of superheroes.

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Fairly scarce, especially in HG.

123 universal copies

193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above

12 8.0 and above

4 9.0 and above.

--Established mega key, has been for years. Few issues added to census in last year. High percentage of existing copies probably slabbed.

--Price flat

--Other Showcase appearances command high prices.

--No movie imminent

--Not being hyped by boardies.

--Collectors not rushing to own a copy.

 

SC 22

 

--Early SA key

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Not uncommon, but very scarce in high grade

210 universal copies,

268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above

9 8.0 and above

2 9.0 and above

--Established key, but a mega key less than a year. Many issues added to census in last year. May be comparatively low percentage of copies slabbed?

--Price has risen sharply.

--Other Showcase appearances not high-priced.

--Movie coming soon.

--Heavily hyped by boardies.

--Collectors desperately trying to get a copy.

 

I think an outside observer would look at these facts and be skeptical that SC 22 will surpass SC 4 in value over the long haul. Many of the factors playing into the rise in SC 22 have hype and speculation written all over them. I'm not saying the book is sitting on a bubble, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it was (HG being the exception).

 

I'll make some predictions.

 

In 10 years there will be 3 times as many universal copies of SC 22 compared to SC 4.

In 10 years there will be more HG (8.0 and above) copies of SC 22 than SC 4.

In 10 years any copy of SC 22 will be significantly less valuable than a similarly graded SC 4, with the possible exception of 9.0 and above if few copies of 22 in those grades surface.

 

But then what do I know.

 

 

 

There is a chance a high grade copy will be found. Just look at the mound city collection. No one had heard of that six months ago and lo and behold the dude had a 9.4 X-Men #1. That could have easily been the SC22 and then we would have had a real bidding mania. SC4 is going to be harder. It is three years older and seemingly before the time that many collectors were putting away books. All we can hope for is that new copies surface of both.

[kimik]

To put some perspective on the SC 4 vs. SC 22 debate, consider the folowing comparison.

 

SC 4:

 

--Widely accepted as first SA book, ushering in the modern age of superheroes.

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Fairly scarce, especially in HG.

123 universal copies

193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above

12 8.0 and above

4 9.0 and above.

--Established mega key, has been for years. Few issues added to census in last year. High percentage of existing copies probably slabbed.

--Price flat

--Other Showcase appearances command high prices.

--No movie imminent

--Not being hyped by boardies.

--Collectors not rushing to own a copy.

 

SC 22

 

--Early SA key

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Not uncommon, but very scarce in high grade

210 universal copies,

268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above

9 8.0 and above

2 9.0 and above

--Established key, but a mega key less than a year. Many issues added to census in last year. May be comparatively low percentage of copies slabbed?

--Price has risen sharply.

--Other Showcase appearances not high-priced.

--Movie coming soon.

--Heavily hyped by boardies.

--Collectors desperately trying to get a copy.

 

I think an outside observer would look at these facts and be skeptical that SC 22 will surpass SC 4 in value over the long haul. Many of the factors playing into the rise in SC 22 have hype and speculation written all over them. I'm not saying the book is sitting on a bubble, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it was (HG being the exception).

 

I'll make some predictions.

 

In 10 years there will be 3 times as many universal copies of SC 22 compared to SC 4.

In 10 years there will be more HG (8.0 and above) copies of SC 22 than SC 4.

In 10 years any copy of SC 22 will be significantly less valuable than a similarly graded SC 4, with the possible exception of 9.0 and above if few copies of 22 in those grades surface.

 

But then what do I know.

 

 

 

I wonder if the same was being said about AF #15 before and after the first movie when prices jumped?

 

We are seeing a lot of SC #22s coming out of the woodwork now due to the pending movie which skews the submission numbers, but the interesting things is that the vast majority are low grade. I bet that if there were a Flash movie in the works we would see a lot more SC #4s pop up for grading as well. However, I think that there would be more copies of SC #4 available in higher grades since it was considered a key book for a much longer time and therefore looked after.

 

As far as long term values go, unless Flash has a decent movie and sees a big surge in popularity I think that 10 years from now SC #22 will be worth more in the same grade. As Marvel fanboy John (and Roy in another thread) stated, GL has more cross over appeal to the zombies, and as they open their eyes and come to the good side of the force they will be the ones who drive prices up.

 

 

 

 

[JohnT]

To put some perspective on the SC 4 vs. SC 22 debate, consider the folowing comparison.

 

SC 4:

 

--Widely accepted as first SA book, ushering in the modern age of superheroes.

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Fairly scarce, especially in HG.

123 universal copies

193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above

12 8.0 and above

4 9.0 and above.

--Established mega key, has been for years. Few issues added to census in last year. High percentage of existing copies probably slabbed.

--Price flat

--Other Showcase appearances command high prices.

--No movie imminent

--Not being hyped by boardies.

--Collectors not rushing to own a copy.

 

SC 22

 

--Early SA key

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Not uncommon, but very scarce in high grade

210 universal copies,

268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above

9 8.0 and above

2 9.0 and above

--Established key, but a mega key less than a year. Many issues added to census in last year. May be comparatively low percentage of copies slabbed?

--Price has risen sharply.

--Other Showcase appearances not high-priced.

--Movie coming soon.

--Heavily hyped by boardies.

--Collectors desperately trying to get a copy.

 

I think an outside observer would look at these facts and be skeptical that SC 22 will surpass SC 4 in value over the long haul. Many of the factors playing into the rise in SC 22 have hype and speculation written all over them. I'm not saying the book is sitting on a bubble, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it was (HG being the exception).

 

I'll make some predictions.

 

In 10 years there will be 3 times as many universal copies of SC 22 compared to SC 4.

In 10 years there will be more HG (8.0 and above) copies of SC 22 than SC 4.

In 10 years any copy of SC 22 will be significantly less valuable than a similarly graded SC 4, with the possible exception of 9.0 and above if few copies of 22 in those grades surface.

 

But then what do I know.

 

 

 

There is a chance a high grade copy will be found. Just look at the mound city collection. No one had heard of that six months ago and lo and behold the dude had a 9.4 X-Men #1. That could have easily been the SC22 and then we would have had a real bidding mania. SC4 is going to be harder. It is three years older and seemingly before the time that many collectors were putting away books. All we can hope for is that new copies surface of both.

 

I should have added that to the comparison: SC 4 published in 1956, SC 22 published in 1959. In fact I'll go back and do that.

[JohnT]

To put some perspective on the SC 4 vs. SC 22 debate, consider the folowing comparison.

 

SC 4:

 

--Widely accepted as first SA book, ushering in the modern age of superheroes.

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Fairly scarce, especially in HG.

123 universal copies

193 total CGC copies

25 6.0 and above

12 8.0 and above

4 9.0 and above.

--Established mega key, has been for years. Few issues added to census in last year. High percentage of existing copies probably slabbed.

--Price flat

--Other Showcase appearances command high prices.

--No movie imminent

--Not being hyped by boardies.

--Collectors not rushing to own a copy.

 

SC 22

 

--Early SA key

--First appearance of a major DC character.

--Not uncommon, but very scarce in high grade

210 universal copies,

268 total CGC copies

37 6.0 and above

9 8.0 and above

2 9.0 and above

--Established key, but a mega key less than a year. Many issues added to census in last year. May be comparatively low percentage of copies slabbed?

--Price has risen sharply.

--Other Showcase appearances not high-priced.

--Movie coming soon.

--Heavily hyped by boardies.

--Collectors desperately trying to get a copy.

 

I think an outside observer would look at these facts and be skeptical that SC 22 will surpass SC 4 in value over the long haul. Many of the factors playing into the rise in SC 22 have hype and speculation written all over them. I'm not saying the book is sitting on a bubble, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it was (HG being the exception).

 

I'll make some predictions.

 

In 10 years there will be 3 times as many universal copies of SC 22 compared to SC 4.

In 10 years there will be more HG (8.0 and above) copies of SC 22 than SC 4.

In 10 years any copy of SC 22 will be significantly less valuable than a similarly graded SC 4, with the possible exception of 9.0 and above if few copies of 22 in those grades surface.

 

But then what do I know.

 

 

 

I wonder if the same was being said about AF #15 before and after the first movie when prices jumped?

 

We are seeing a lot of SC #22s coming out of the woodwork now due to the pending movie which skews the submission numbers, but the interesting things is that the vast majority are low grade. I bet that if there were a Flash movie in the works we would see a lot more SC #4s pop up for grading as well. However, I think that there would be more copies of SC #4 available in higher grades since it was considered a key book for a much longer time and therefore looked after.

 

As far as long term values go, unless Flash has a decent movie and sees a big surge in popularity I think that 10 years from now SC #22 will be worth more in the same grade. As Marvel fanboy John (and Roy in another thread) stated, GL has more cross over appeal to the zombies, and as they open their eyes and come to the good side of the force they will be the ones who drive prices up.

 

 

I don't see why SC 4 would be considered a key longer than 22. From the time serious collecting really took hold in the 60's both were clearly keys and highly sought after.

 

As the census numbers show, 22 is the more common book in all but the 9.0 and above grades. And the number of 9.0 plus books is luck of the draw, really.

 

The reason 4 will always be THE DC SA key, imo, is that it will always be the first SA book. That in itself has a lot of crossover interest regardless of how popular Flash is.

[innocuous]

SC4 will be tougher to find. I don't know exact numbers, but I believe I've seen that circulation was much lower. The reason there are so many in the census now is that as the major key before SC22 became hot, people were getting it slabbed.

 

I agree, in 10 years, SC22 will outnumber SC4, easily.

[tth2]

I wonder if the same was being said about AF #15 before and after the first movie when prices jumped?

Stop comparing SC 22 to AF 15! The dynamics of the books and the characters are totally different!

 

I will say that there was definitely a bubble in Spiderman books AFTER the first movie, when the movie surprised way to the upside. It's hard to remember this now, but it took a long time for Spiderman books to regain their post-movie peaks.