PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[nik]

Ouch

[divad]

I think it's fine the way it is. You don't put reputable names on the list, it would only lead to confusion. The "majority vote" notation is only to refer to the exception made in his, ahem, election.

[THE_BEYONDER]

12/07/07 PROBATION UPDATE

 

The following Forum Members are currently on "probation" for failure to complete a transaction in good faith after one month's time:

 

bronzejunkie

(added 3/26/07)

 

clobberintime

(added 11/7/07)

 

comicmankev

(added 3/27/07)

 

DiceX

(added 12/7/07)

 

donavan74

(added 3/27/07)

 

Fandango

(added 11/7/07)

 

Ghastly

(added by majority vote 12/3/07)

 

Herald2Galactus

(Inaugural Member & 1st "Hall of Shame" Member)

 

Joker-Fish

(added 8/9/07)

 

Lighthouse

(added 6/13/07)

 

Nascar

(added 6/2/07)

 

newkingintown

(added 10/18/07)

 

Old Man

(added 12/7/07)

 

Sid

(added 8/8/07)

 

SpiderJay300

(added 9/15/07)

 

 

Why is DiceX on the list?

 

 

*nevermind. Reading the thread now....

Edited December 7, 2007 by THE_BEYONDER

[inconceivable]

I think it's fine the way it is. You don't put reputable names on the list, it would only lead to confusion. The "majority vote" notation is only to refer to the exception made in his, ahem, election.

 

Did the person who complained not want him put on probation? Is that why others had to step in? I am just questioning the use of "majority vote". Ghastly did not complete a transaction in good faith within a month. So he should be on the list. Right?

 

Dan

[Sal]

I think it's fine the way it is. You don't put reputable names on the list, it would only lead to confusion. The "majority vote" notation is only to refer to the exception made in his, ahem, election.

 

Did the person who complained not want him put on probation? Is that why others had to step in? I am just questioning the use of "majority vote". Ghastly did not complete a transaction in good faith within a month. So he should be on the list. Right?

 

Dan

 

Ghastly's case is special, in that books were actually sent. The sticking points are that a) the packing job was amateurish at best and led to damage to books, and b) the one big-ticket item arrived in a condition severely worse than advertised, and c) that he refused to take a single iota of blame, going so far as to blame the shipping service, the buyer and even the buyer's neighbours.

 

In Ghastly's mind, the delivery of books - one could interpret his "argument" as being all responsibility left Ghastly the moment the box was sealed, apparently - is all that's needed to show "good faith." Everyone else disagreed, thus the vote

[inconceivable]

I think it's fine the way it is. You don't put reputable names on the list, it would only lead to confusion. The "majority vote" notation is only to refer to the exception made in his, ahem, election.

 

Did the person who complained not want him put on probation? Is that why others had to step in? I am just questioning the use of "majority vote". Ghastly did not complete a transaction in good faith within a month. So he should be on the list. Right?

 

Dan

 

Ghastly's case is special, in that books were actually sent. The sticking points are that a) the packing job was amateurish at best and led to damage to books, and b) the one big-ticket item arrived in a condition severely worse than advertised, and c) that he refused to take a single iota of blame, going so far as to blame the shipping service, the buyer and even the buyer's neighbours.

 

In Ghastly's mind, the delivery of books - one could interpret his "argument" as being all responsibility left Ghastly the moment the box was sealed, apparently - is all that's needed to show "good faith." Everyone else disagreed, thus the vote

 

My bad. I thought a transaction in good faith ended when the customer was happy.

 

Dan

[tth2]

Things like this are part of the reason I like to just sell to people I know now. The random board member can't be trusted any more than the random eBayer. Sad but true.

Good point. I think this thread has actually highlighted that it`s primarily the "marginal" board members who end up on this list. Most of these guys were never really strong parts of the board community anyways, and thus clearly felt no shame about shafting other members.

 

So perhaps it`s not surprising that their records are no better than any random eBayers. In a sense, they`re no different.

[Monstro]

i thought DiceX was a long time board member

[bye-migration]

I know I said I wasnt going to respond more than once but I feel its needed.

 

 

I packed that box very tight. The box itself weighed over 40lbs. Ray admitted that the box had a crushed corner and since the box did not have a crushed corner when it left me I can only assume it was dropped. A box weighing 40+lbs when dropped is going to have problems its sheer physics. There were 140 or so magazines in that box and Ray mentions that a few were shifted. The picture he posted shows its a mess inside but it didnt look like that when I sent it, so yes that box sustained damage resulting in magazines shifting around. Now to the Eerie #2 that book had its cover attached I SWEAR to God. I wouldnt lie about the condition that would be awfully dumb when Ray can then post that Im a lair and a thief. Ive never ripped anyone off nor did I "overgrade the book". I purchased that book from Metropolis and had it for 2 years or so...I stated all defects in my ad and thats how it was when it left thats how it was when I recieved it from Metropolis. Now anyone who has seen an Eerie #2 knows they have a single staple in the middle not 2 like most books. If that box as dropped from high enough or hard enough or many times than yes I can see that book having its cover detached. Its a 50+ year old book that was in vg/f condition. I can try and make an anology....

 

If a customer at a comicbook store asks the clerk to see and hold a golden age book in a Mylar and while in the customers possesion and due to the customers mishandling he drops the book and cause serious damage... is the store/clerk at fault or is the customer at fault for damaged sustained from the fall? Im guessing it would be pinned on the customer. Ever see the signs in the store "You break it you buy it" ?

 

Im sorry in my first post If I made it sound like it was all Rays fault, my point was that if I had an expensive box coming and I knew I was leaving town for a week I would have told the shipper to wait a week so I could recieve the box myself. In that case there are no "gray areas" as to what happened with the box while not in the buyers possesion. The box was not in Ray's possesion for 1 week ! In reality Ray has NO idea what happened to that box in a weeks time nor do I. Im sure Ray trusts his neighbor but Im supposed to as well? Why should I ? I dont even know Ray or have reason to trust him. Why didnt Ray file a complaint with FedEx ? I declared the value of that box so he should have some sorta recourse. Metropolis states on their site that if a box is damaged contact the shipping company.

 

The whole thing comes down to Ray believes I sent him that Eerie in worse shape than stated. I say it was as stated and it then comes down to my word versus what Ray believes but doesnt know.I know that book was in the conditon I stated it as. Ray believes that the conditon of the book presently could not have happened during shipping or after and I say it had to have! The book was in the condition I claimed it was i.e. cover attached and with the noted defects. I find it unbelievable that many here assume I lied about the condition but why cant I then turn around and say Maybe Ray accidently tore the cover off removing it from the mylar ? Maybe Ray dropped it ? Maybe Rays neighbor played frisbee with it while he had the box for a week ? Who knows !?!?!? Those accusations seem kinda harsh but isnt that what Ray was essentially saying about me ? My point is why am I the liar ? Exactly what in my past dealings here make some think that I would knowingly lie about the condition of books??? Is it that Ray has posted here longer ? What entitles some to be labeled a thief and a liar without proof and others as solid honest people ?

 

 

Im terribly sorry Ray is unhappy but for the fact that the box was damaged the books where jumbled about leads me to believe thats what caused the Eerie to suffer its damage. If you buy a glass vase thats in mint condition and you notice the box is damaged when it arrives and the vase is broken inside do you assume that the seller lied about the vase being in mint condition or that maybe the box was mishandled and the damage happened because of it. If you guys wanna put me on a list of "bad guys" then go ahead or as one obtuse poster said that I should be killed then fine be my guest. I really like this forum and enjoy posting here and reading others posts so it would be a shame if Im not welcome. Ill say this one more time Im not a liar nor am I a thief I mad an honest transaction with Ray. The box was damaged and thus the contents were damaged. I felt I packed the box well but a box at that weight if dropped can lead to damage.

 

 

Ghastly

[OldGuy]

i thought DiceX was a long time board member

 

"Was" being the operative word in that sentence.

[Anfield Fox]

Re: Old Man. After he was removed from the list back in the summer, he burned another board member but despite my suggesting he put old man's name forward, he didn't want to make a big deal of it. I think we have hall of shame member 2 here if any more people come forward.

[whomerjay]

I know I said I wasnt going to respond more than once but I feel its needed.

 

 

I packed that box very tight. The box itself weighed over 40lbs. Ray admitted that the box had a crushed corner and since the box did not have a crushed corner when it left me I can only assume it was dropped. A box weighing 40+lbs when dropped is going to have problems its sheer physics. There were 140 or so magazines in that box and Ray mentions that a few were shifted. The picture he posted shows its a mess inside but it didnt look like that when I sent it, so yes that box sustained damage resulting in magazines shifting around. Now to the Eerie #2 that book had its cover attached I SWEAR to God. I wouldnt lie about the condition that would be awfully dumb when Ray can then post that Im a lair and a thief. Ive never ripped anyone off nor did I "overgrade the book". I purchased that book from Metropolis and had it for 2 years or so...I stated all defects in my ad and thats how it was when it left thats how it was when I recieved it from Metropolis. Now anyone who has seen an Eerie #2 knows they have a single staple in the middle not 2 like most books. If that box as dropped from high enough or hard enough or many times than yes I can see that book having its cover detached. Its a 50+ year old book that was in vg/f condition. I can try and make an anology....

 

If a customer at a comicbook store asks the clerk to see and hold a golden age book in a Mylar and while in the customers possesion and due to the customers mishandling he drops the book and cause serious damage... is the store/clerk at fault or is the customer at fault for damaged sustained from the fall? Im guessing it would be pinned on the customer. Ever see the signs in the store "You break it you buy it" ?

 

Im sorry in my first post If I made it sound like it was all Rays fault, my point was that if I had an expensive box coming and I knew I was leaving town for a week I would have told the shipper to wait a week so I could recieve the box myself. In that case there are no "gray areas" as to what happened with the box while not in the buyers possesion. The box was not in Ray's possesion for 1 week ! In reality Ray has NO idea what happened to that box in a weeks time nor do I. Im sure Ray trusts his neighbor but Im supposed to as well? Why should I ? I dont even know Ray or have reason to trust him. Why didnt Ray file a complaint with FedEx ? I declared the value of that box so he should have some sorta recourse. Metropolis states on their site that if a box is damaged contact the shipping company.

 

The whole thing comes down to Ray believes I sent him that Eerie in worse shape than stated. I say it was as stated and it then comes down to my word versus what Ray believes but doesnt know.I know that book was in the conditon I stated it as. Ray believes that the conditon of the book presently could not have happened during shipping or after and I say it had to have! The book was in the condition I claimed it was i.e. cover attached and with the noted defects. I find it unbelievable that many here assume I lied about the condition but why cant I then turn around and say Maybe Ray accidently tore the cover off removing it from the mylar ? Maybe Ray dropped it ? Maybe Rays neighbor played frisbee with it while he had the box for a week ? Who knows !?!?!? Those accusations seem kinda harsh but isnt that what Ray was essentially saying about me ? My point is why am I the liar ? Exactly what in my past dealings here make some think that I would knowingly lie about the condition of books??? Is it that Ray has posted here longer ? What entitles some to be labeled a thief and a liar without proof and others as solid honest people ?

 

 

Im terribly sorry Ray is unhappy but for the fact that the box was damaged the books where jumbled about leads me to believe thats what caused the Eerie to suffer its damage. If you buy a glass vase thats in mint condition and you notice the box is damaged when it arrives and the vase is broken inside do you assume that the seller lied about the vase being in mint condition or that maybe the box was mishandled and the damage happened because of it. If you guys wanna put me on a list of "bad guys" then go ahead or as one obtuse poster said that I should be killed then fine be my guest. I really like this forum and enjoy posting here and reading others posts so it would be a shame if Im not welcome. Ill say this one more time Im not a liar nor am I a thief I mad an honest transaction with Ray. The box was damaged and thus the contents were damaged. I felt I packed the box well but a box at that weight if dropped can lead to damage.

 

 

Ghastly

 

You obviously have a blind spot here despite what everyone has said. You’ve been a real through all of this, being curt in both emails and the paypal process to resolve. I will leave it to others to point out again what you don’t get. There is one small element of your argument, however, that deserves addressing.

 

You claim the Eerie left you with the cover attached, that you know this with certainty, so you are sure it was detached after it left you. And thus, this essentially boils things down to your word against mine.

 

You assert there is a good chance the book was damaged by mishandling of the package. Others have pointed out, but you refuse to believe, that not only was indeed the package poorly packed, but you bear some responsibility to make it handler-proof. Unbagged books stacked up against a corner of a relatively soft box? I acknowledged the Eerie, placed in the middle of the box in bag surrounded by 2 boards, appeared unaffected by any shifting. It is an incredible long shot that sufficient stress could have been placed on the cover/staple of that bagged and boarded book. Somehow the boards, exerting a shear stress against the cover, would have to be moved quickly and far enough (while in the bag) such that the cover would be pulled at the point of attachment. Next to impossible to happen or even design in an experiment. So you can absolve Fed Ex or my neighbor for the Eerie.

 

You suggest I could have detached the cover. I will play devil’s advocate here. In truth, this is the only scenario with even a remote possibility, and it is true that no one can ascertain if in fact I caused damage to the book. Well I know how to inspect a book without damaging it, having done so for 30 years with probably over 100,000 books, and this book was inspected VERY carefully. The ONLY possibility that would lend an ounce of veracity to your claim is that the simple act of opening the cover carefully was enough to detach it, in a manner that was not detectable to me. Highly unlikely, but if it were true, what does that say about the book?

 

You never addressed the overgraded SSOCs.

 

Under any scenario, the books, especially the Eerie, were not as described when they left you.

 

I don’t think anyone is necessarily calling you a liar. It’s simply the totality of circumstances are that you messed up this transaction: the books were not as described plus you did a -poor packing job, and like with any situation on here where there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the buyer has a right to be unhappy, forumites expect sellers to accept returns. Indeed, for most transactions, a simple disagreement over the grade, regardless of the validity of the claim, usually places the onus on the seller to accept a return. We don’t have the AS IS mentality on these boards.

 

Perhaps you really think you did everything right here, and are frustrated. But it seems you are incredibly blind to multiple truths in this situation. It is disturbing to me that this would happen to someone who obviously enjoys these boards, but the way you’ve dealt with this situation in emails to me and in posts here really limits my sympathy for you. I would like you to continue to enjoy this forum, but I don't think you know how to make that happen.

 

[skypinkblu]

Ghastly, I think what you are missing here, is that it's not just the seller's responsibility to mail an item, but to also protect the item with packaging against possible damage.

 

I'll give you two examples, since you used glass. I once bought a lot of glass off Ebay, about 5 pieces. The seller put the glass (vases and sugar and creamers) in the boxes, with about 3 pieces of crumbled newspaper as packing, that was it. The glass came in about 50 pieces. The seller didn't make an effort to protect it, he got my money, he shipped the glass, in his mind, end of story. He was wrong.

 

Last week, I shipped someone a china horse. I wrapped it in foam, double boxed it, wrapped the inside box in bubble wrap, packed it in a larger box with peanuts very tightly, it still came with a broken leg, but the buyer said she is not upset with me, because it was the best packing job she had ever seen (she might be exaggerating but I tried). It was really a shame. She keeps telling me she is not upset with me..because I tried my best.

 

We all know the postal service plays football with the packages, USP and FedEx too, it's the nature of the beast. It has nothing to do with a neighbor, kids, or anything else, we KNOW the boxes are going to get tossed around...so, when you pack something, especially something expensive in high grade, you need adequate packing around the items to protect it.

 

As for me, I figure I learn something every day...I don't think people are calling you a liar...I think people just want you to admit you made an error in judgment and that you will work something out with Ray, since you made an error when you packed the box...I just don't see it as his fault, all he did was pay you.

 

I've learned to insure ANYTHING I sell, even if the buyer doesn't want to pay for it, that is over the amount I would feel comfortable reimbursing the buyer for in case of a problem. If FedEx has automatic insurance (I know UPS does up to $200) YOU might want to be a nice guy about it, and at least give them a call.

 

 

At least that's how I see it...

 

I didn't see Ray's response before I posted this...

Edited December 8, 2007 by skypinkblu

[Mac Man]

After reading Ghastly's response (and the example of the 'break it you buy it rule' is noted), I was waiting for Sharon to pipe in about customer service.

 

"We all know the postal service plays football with the packages, USP and FedEx too, it's the nature of the beast. It has nothing to do with a neighbor, kids, or anything else, we KNOW the boxes are going to get tossed around...so, when you pack something, especially something expensive in high grade, you need adequate packing around the items to protect it....

 

...I've learned to insure ANYTHING I sell, even if the buyer doesn't want to pay for it, that is over the amount I would feel comfortable reimbursing the buyer for in case of a problem."

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here in being more proactive in high-value dealings to avoid 'he said' situations like we are seeing here. $5 down for insurance would have likely seen a resolution to this off the boards...

[Monstro]

wow, lots of reading. need to put on pot of coffee........

[skypinkblu]

After reading Ghastly's response (and the example of the 'break it you buy it rule' is noted), I was waiting for Sharon to pipe in about customer service.

 

"

 

I must be boring, if I'm THAT obvious, ...sorry... I just figure sometimes people (even men) get emotional about a subject and can't see the forest for the trees..

[DrWatson]

Men, do not get emotional. Men, get angry. Just so you know.

[143ksk]

Men, do not get emotional. Men, get angry. Just so you know.

 

[szelim]

Men, do not get emotional. Men, get angry. Just so you know.

And looney

[DrWatson]

Men, do not get emotional. Men, get angry. Just so you know.

And looney

I was just kidding around with Sharon.