PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[N/A]

I like his "honesty" in WTB.

[jaybuck43]

Agree with Brock. Not HoS. Besides it wouldn't fix anything. He's selling while on the PL right now anyway.

[N/A]

We'll....he's trying.

[Joe Kim]

Just to further my point about trying to make things right with him and then him going ghost. HIs last post was to comment about the situation in my kudos forum. I contacted him many times after this, yet no response, and he's yet to post on the board since.

 

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=26448

 

 

I KNOW I've been dishonest, made some serious mess ups here. But In this one scenario, I really did try to make things right.

 

You guys have no reason to believe me, but I am trying to turn things around here. If you could give me a chance to prove myself, I'd appreciate it. But fully understand if you can't.

[Joe Kim]

and let me re-iterate i don't have any gripes being on PL i deserve that.

 

but calling for me to be placed on HoS due to this transgression, i do think is a bit much.

[HarveySwick]

Maybe it's time to think about something more permanent and considering putting Symbiotic on the HOS. The allure of $ is obviously too much for him. His word is worthless as he has proven time and time again. No matter how many times he says and he's learned and will take time away from selling or stop selling here all together - he just goes back on his "word". Whether it's his repeated shilling despite being called out on it more than once or backing out of several transactions with excuse after excuse. He obviously isn't someone that CAN change his behavior and reform. Some people just can't help themselves.

 

Sorry Harv...but the fact that he's untrustworthy isn't HOS worthy IMO

 

At the end of the day, if everyone's been refunded or received their books, there's nothing the community can do but warn others regarding future purchases.

 

If the community as a whole stopped buying, he'd learn. Putting him unjustly on the HOS list for going back on his word would set a dangerous precedent.

 

What is the point of the HOS then and what is a "valid" nomination for the HOS?

 

Repeated transgressions involving deception and patterns of lesser morality to cheat and manipulate members of the Boards with inability or refusal to reform their behavior?

 

If someone always cheats and lies and manipulates and gets caught and says they're sorry and will change their ways. And then doesn't. Rinse. Repeat. At what point do their actions rise to the level of a HOS nomination? Is it only the $ amount that matters? How much of an annoyance they are to the community?

 

Believe me - I've openly stated in the past that people rush to the HOS. But I don't know how many times this guy can keep throwing out "you guys are right. I'm sorry. I need to work on things. I'm going to x, y and z to make things better". And then a few months later we're right back to where we started.

 

So, back to my first question:

 

What is the point of the HOS then and what is a "valid" nomination for the HOS?

[Wolfpack06]

It was stated in this thread over 2 months ago that a refund was provided for the missing Manifest Destiny 1. However, I would like to correct the inaccuracies contained in Symbiotic's statements in his current sales thread:

 

I never asked Symbiotic for a full refund. The NM98 was received and the agreed-upon price for that book was $200. I told Symbiotic repeatedly that I wanted the MD1 and only opened the Paypal partial refund claim (for $30) since he wasn't replying to PMs.

 

I'm confused as to how I was able to inform ebay that Symbiotic was selling an item (the MD1 now in CGC 9.6 form) that he now claim in his sales thread was still at CGC due to long turnaround times on moderns?

 

Symbiotic attempted to contact me on 5/2/14 (after the $30 refund was provided) to make things right, but he had the chance to do that when he asked and I told him I still wanted the MD1 even though it was accidentally graded. Instead, Symbiotic continued with the ebay sale of the book.

 

My ordeal with Symbiotic is closed as far as I am concerned, I just wanted to post this as I'm not a fan of him changing the circumstances of our interaction.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Wolfpack06

[KPR Comics]

For me, the question is what purposes do either list serve? Punitive, deterrent, vengeance, warning? Neither prevents the transgressor from transacting. It seems that the public shaming that occurs (either in the sales thread or in this forum) has more of an impact so maybe that's the purpose. To provide license to others to out someone (whether it is the seller who is/has been a bad actor, or the buyer who ignores the past (i.e., the cool book shaming). Personally, I avoid Sellers on the list or nominees (whether justifiably nominated or not), but it's not the list that alerts me. It is the discussion related to the list.

 

[N/A]

Maybe it's time to think about something more permanent and considering putting Symbiotic on the HOS. The allure of $ is obviously too much for him. His word is worthless as he has proven time and time again. No matter how many times he says and he's learned and will take time away from selling or stop selling here all together - he just goes back on his "word". Whether it's his repeated shilling despite being called out on it more than once or backing out of several transactions with excuse after excuse. He obviously isn't someone that CAN change his behavior and reform. Some people just can't help themselves.

 

Sorry Harv...but the fact that he's untrustworthy isn't HOS worthy IMO

 

At the end of the day, if everyone's been refunded or received their books, there's nothing the community can do but warn others regarding future purchases.

 

If the community as a whole stopped buying, he'd learn. Putting him unjustly on the HOS list for going back on his word would set a dangerous precedent.

 

What is the point of the HOS then and what is a "valid" nomination for the HOS?

 

Repeated transgressions involving deception and patterns of lesser morality to cheat and manipulate members of the Boards with inability or refusal to reform their behavior?

 

If someone always cheats and lies and manipulates and gets caught and says they're sorry and will change their ways. And then doesn't. Rinse. Repeat. At what point do their actions rise to the level of a HOS nomination? Is it only the $ amount that matters? How much of an annoyance they are to the community?

 

Believe me - I've openly stated in the past that people rush to the HOS. But I don't know how many times this guy can keep throwing out "you guys are right. I'm sorry. I need to work on things. I'm going to x, y and z to make things better". And then a few months later we're right back to where we started.

 

So, back to my first question:

 

What is the point of the HOS then and what is a "valid" nomination for the HOS?

 

Someone who cheats/steals/lies and does nothing to rectify the situation. The repeat offender you describe also repeatedly rectifies the situation. When he fails to do this then he is nominated for the hall.

[HarveySwick]

 

Fair enough. (thumbs u

[N/A]

For me, the question is what purposes do either list serve? Punitive, deterrent, vengeance, warning? Neither prevents the transgressor from transacting. It seems that the public shaming that occurs (either in the sales thread or in this forum) has more of an impact so maybe that's the purpose. To provide license to others to out someone (whether it is the seller who is/has been a bad actor, or the buyer who ignores the past (i.e., the cool book shaming). Personally, I avoid Sellers on the list or nominees (whether justifiably nominated or not), but it's not the list that alerts me. It is the discussion related to the list.

 

The lists lack any real power but does limit a boardies ability to openly engage in future transactions.

[KPR Comics]

Might be more impactful if a scarlet letter was automatically added to any sales/purchase post by someone on the list.

[Columbia Comics]

Might be more impactful if a scarlet letter was automatically added to any sales/purchase post by someone on the list.

 

Or if the mods gave them a custom title that said, in big BOLD letters:

 

Probation List Member

 

Hall of Shame Member

 

That would draw attention to every post they made!

[Pirate]

now he's trying to trade his books in WTB. He just doesn't get it. Some sucker will take him up on it tho

[KPR Comics]

Might be more impactful if a scarlet letter was automatically added to any sales/purchase post by someone on the list.

 

Or if the mods gave them a custom title that said, in big BOLD letters:

 

Probation List Member

 

Hall of Shame Member

 

That would draw attention to every post they made!

Was trying to strike a balance by limiting to sales/purchase posts.

[comix4fun]

Nomination: Symbiotic (PMed Symbiotic this afternoon about nominating him for PL)

Reason: Purchased New Mutants 98 CGC 9.4 and 1 raw copy of Manifest Destiny 1 regular cover from Symbiotic's sale thread on 3/5/14. The events listed below are what followed:

 

3/5/14 Paid by Paypal for the 2 books listed above

3/6/14 Symbiotic provides tracking number

3/11/14 I PMed Symbiotic to let him know that package shows that it was delivered to the incorrect state.

3/13/14 Symbiotic replies that he must have mailed it to himself. He is out of town but will correct the shipping mistake when he returns home. I reply that I am fine with that.

3/18/14 Symbiotic replies that he is back home and will ship package out in the next few days.

3/21/14 Symbiotic states that he has sent package out again.

3/30/14 I return home from vacation to find that the package has arrived, yet it only contains the NM98. The Manifest Destiny 1 is missing. I PM Symbiotic to let him know the MD1 was not in the package.

4/2/14 No reply from Symbiotic, so I file an "Item Not as Described" dispute with Paypal to preserve my rights. Symbiotic replies shortly after the dispute is filed and states he will get the MD1 in the mail "right away"

4/9/14 Still no book or tracking number. I PM Symbiotic to ask if MD1 has been sent yet.

4/10/14 Paypal dispute escalated to a claim since there's still no reply and book hasn't been received.

4/14/14 Symbiotic PMs and asks if I would rather have the book or receive a refund.

4/15/14 I reply to the PM stating that I would rather have the book

4/15/14 Symbiotic replies, stating that he accidentally sent my MD1 in for grading and that it received a 9.6. He asks if I still want the book.

4/15/14 I reply that I still want it. Symbiotic reads message but does not reply.

4/18/14 Still no reply, no tracking number, no book, no refund.

 

So in Symbotic's own feedback thread he's posted that he has refunded Wolfpack... in a post today. Wonder when he refunded the money, was it just prior to him starting up his sales thread?

 

That'd be pretty weak, wait to resolve a refund until you wanted to get off the probation list...

 

Wonder where wolfpack is so he can confirm the refund...

 

 

Was Symbi the guy who shilled his own auctions? I can't remember.

[HarveySwick]

Was Symbi the guy who shilled his own auctions? I can't remember.

(thumbs u

 

-Shilled his own auctions.

-Discovered.

-"The Shiller Speaks" thread started. I'm sorry. I've learned the error of my ways. I'm taking some time away.

-Two weeks later - new sales thread.

-Called out for that.

-I'm sorry. I made a mistake again.

-Shilled his own auctions.

-Discovered.

-I'm sorry. I've learned the error of my ways. I'm never going to sell here again. This community means more to me than just the ability to sell.

 

Today.

[N/A]

now he's trying to trade his books in WTB. He just doesn't get it. Some sucker will take him up on it tho

 

Obviously, since there was just an announcement to turn the blue label he is "downgrading" to into another SS.

[Columbia Comics]

Might be more impactful if a scarlet letter was automatically added to any sales/purchase post by someone on the list.

 

Or if the mods gave them a custom title that said, in big BOLD letters:

 

Probation List Member

 

Hall of Shame Member

 

That would draw attention to every post they made!

Was trying to strike a balance by limiting to sales/purchase posts.

 

Not sure if that function exists...where a member would be banned from certain sub-forums. I doubt it. This is canned forum software, not custom.

[comix4fun]

Was Symbi the guy who shilled his own auctions? I can't remember.

(thumbs u

 

-Shilled his own auctions.

-Discovered.

-"The Shiller Speaks" thread started. I'm sorry. I've learned the error of my ways. I'm taking some time away.

-Two weeks later - new sales thread.

-Called out for that.

-I'm sorry. I made a mistake again.

-Shilled his own auctions.

-Discovered.

-I'm sorry. I've learned the error of my ways. I'm never going to sell here again. This community means more to me than just the ability to sell.

 

Today.

 

 

That's what I thought.

 

With so many new people buying and joining every month, allowing people to be "sorry" and get off of lists easily, especially when a pattern of dishonesty and insincere apologies has been clearly established, does nothing to notify or protect people to whom the transgressions predate their membership.

 

Mistakes happen, the sincerely penitent make their way off the list.

 

The earnestly compunctious don't correct their "errors in judgment" only after they are caught.

 

The insincere, the recidivist, the habitual and repeat offender, and those that only correct their misdeeds when busted, deserves a more permanent mark to warn others of what's come before and what (history teaches us) is due to come again.

 

That's why the totality of his actions and misdeeds have landed him in the HOS, not any single incident, as he seems to intimate.

 

It would be irresponsible to wash someone clean of all sins when they've shown no ability to remain in the same room as the truth for more than a few minutes without breaking into hives.