PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Red84]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

[comix4fun]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

 

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

[wombat]

The buyer always has paypal to fall back on.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

 

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

 

Ebay sellers used to request additional $ for insurance or even send invoices with additional insurance tacked on (that is also why you used to see a lot more auctions that said "wait for my invoice"). Some sellers didn't know that it was not allowed, others were just angle shooting, knowing that they would get some percentage of buyers to pay this unnecessary charge. I just paid immediately after purchase, before they could send an invoice. If the seller ever asked me later if I wanted insurance, I surely would have said no. As such, I was not changing the terms of my purchase to FOB sales point (where I would be at risk of loss after it left the seller), the terms were still FOB delivered (where the seller was at risk, until it was accepted by me).

 

Any product you pay for with paypal requires the seller to deliver said product to the buyer in the condition described. There is no need for a buyer to pay an additional amount for insurance.

[Beige]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

 

+1

[DavidTheDavid]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

I bought a no returns slab and the seller barely bothered to package it. That one cost him as the shabby packaging caused a crack to the slab that would require regrading. It was too inexpensive to be worth it to me, and I didn't want it that badly. He got stuck with a 1.8 silver age key worth <$100.

 

And besides, PPal wouldn't have supported him. He didn't have a choice ultimately. But he made it right, and it wasn't an issue.

[miraclemet]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

 

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

 

 

but the seller is also expressly waiving insurance right? And it's the sellers responsibility to deliver (via means) the product as described. If not as described then the seller did not meet his/her obligation and the book can go back.

 

insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. I've had a few books disappear as both a buyer and a seller. When I was the buyer I was out nothing, when I was the seller I was out (except I bought insurance, so it was on me to do the insurance claim).

 

Further, When dealing with the USPS, the SENDER is typically the one who is able to open claims, initiate investigations and such. I know some people have helped me out as the receiver, but others have said nope that the guy who sent the package has to start the investigation...

[comix4fun]

You can state your return policy is "no returns". You also can say you aren't paying return shipping which could discourage "I changed my mind" returns.

Theres another can of worms, "no returns" I guess if you get a damaged slab or shaken damaged book like the ones Wally posted...you're skrewed?

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

I'm going to disagree here. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. If the seller ships uninsured and the book gets damaged; well that seller is out of luck because the buyer paid for a book in a particular condition and is entitled to that book or a full refund.

 

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

 

 

but the seller is also expressly waiving insurance right? And it's the sellers responsibility to deliver (via means) the product as described. If not as described then the seller did not meet his/her obligation and the book can go back.

 

insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. I've had a few books disappear as both a buyer and a seller. When I was the buyer I was out nothing, when I was the seller I was out (except I bought insurance, so it was on me to do the insurance claim).

 

Further, When dealing with the USPS, the SENDER is typically the one who is able to open claims, initiate investigations and such. I know some people have helped me out as the receiver, but others have said nope that the guy who sent the package has to start the investigation...

 

 

It's true that those are the basic terms for buyers and sellers if no other agreement is reached. What I am talking about is a specific mutual agreement between the parties while negotiating the deal.

 

I get that what you're saying but if a seller is offering insurance and the buyer refuses it (in writing obviously) that's the only waiver, there's a legal loop hole in there. It's assumption of risk. That's not waiver by the seller, that's the opposite.

 

On international shipments where insurance is tied to the speed of service requested (slower services don't have an insurance or large insurance option) I have had buyer demand the cheaper service and fully relinquish rights to claims for any damages or loss in order to save the money in shipping costs.

 

It becomes a part of the contract between buyer and seller. If, in the meeting of the minds the buyer waives all claim to loss or damage for the consideration of paying less in postage those become material contract terms.

 

That's why you get all of that in writing. Then if a buyer attempts to claim loss or damages against the seller he's in breach of the agreement he willingly entered into. The terms that you're discussing are when the contract is absent agreement of liability and what is promised. The waiver that buyers give when they agree to forego any claim for loss of damage ends the seller's responsibility at the point of making sure the item is shipped at a time and in a manner agreed to by both parties.

 

It's basically FOB Shipping Point or FOB Origin. These aren't new terms. They are terms that show where ownership (and thus liability for loss or damage) transfer from seller to buyer.

 

Also I've had three incidents of damage in the last 5 years as a buyer and I have been able to perfect the claim myself using the insurance label on the package. The post office took the paperwork from me and sent me the check.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

[rodan57]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

Yes. In addition, a seller shouldn't have to pay extra against the possibility that the goods might not arrive in good condition. Successful delivery is a given in the deal.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I believe you mean a buyer shouldn't have to pay extra...

[comix4fun]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

 

No, actually, if you read what I wrote I clearly state that an agreement by a buyer to accept the responsibility for the item in transit, expressly stated, negates the sellers responsibility at the point of shipment as long as reasonable care is used in packing and the item was as promised at the point of shipment.

 

It's a concept as old as shipping.

[comix4fun]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

Yes. In addition, a seller shouldn't have to pay extra against the possibility that the goods might not arrive in good condition. Successful delivery is a given in the deal.

 

 

Depends entirely on the type of agreement the buyer and seller agree to. I am referencing fob point of shipment which some buyers choose to save on cost of shipping. Their choice and many choose it. Assumption of risk is a part of that type of contract and it shifts from seller to buyer at the point the item is released by seller to the shipping entity.

 

What you're referring to is "fob on delivery" where ownership doesn't transfer until safely in the buyers hands. That's more common, of course, but it's not the only way. People are free to make any agreement they want. Some folks don't want the cost of the more expensive shipping when buying (especially international air or express vs surface) and assume the risk.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

 

No, actually, if you read what I wrote I clearly state that an agreement by a buyer to accept the responsibility for the item in transit, expressly stated, negates the sellers responsibility at the point of shipment as long as reasonable care is used in packing and the item was as promised at the point of shipment.

 

It's a concept as old as shipping.

 

I did read what you wrote.

 

 

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

 

 

 

Your first couple of posts only address buyers declining insurance.

I have already pointed out that this does NOT mean the buyer is waiving FOB delivered

 

The seller can't simply say: "Do you want insurance on your books?" and assume a buyers "No" or "I don't need insurance" is an acceptance of FOB shipping point.

 

Now does that mean the seller and buyer can not agree to expressly change terms to FOB shipping point. Sure they can.

 

But as a practical matter I would caution you to only accept such terms from buyers you trust. Paypal will not review your contract with your buyer and will refund them out of hand for any claim, when items are not delivered or are not as described, due to shipping damage. Ebay used to be littered with claims of sellers who were talked into using untrackable First Class Mail international, due to high shipping costs and whose buyers initiated Item Not Received claims days after shipment. Paypal automatically upheld these cases.

 

Thus, feel free to establish your own terms all you like. Yes, they are a binding contract. But it won't help you get the money back out of Paypal when they refund your buyer.

[miraclemet]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

Yes. In addition, a seller shouldn't have to pay extra against the possibility that the goods might not arrive in good condition. Successful delivery is a given in the deal.

 

 

Depends entirely on the type of agreement the buyer and seller agree to. I am referencing fob point of shipment which some buyers choose to save on cost of shipping. Their choice and many choose it. Assumption of risk is a part of that type of contract and it shifts from seller to buyer at the point the item is released by seller to the shipping entity.

 

What you're referring to is "fob on delivery" where ownership doesn't transfer until safely in the buyers hands. That's more common, of course, but it's not the only way. People are free to make any agreement they want. Some folks don't want the cost of the more expensive shipping when buying (especially international air or express vs surface) and assume the risk.

 

Sure any type of agreement can be reached.

 

But the typical and generally expected conditions of a transaction (unless otherwise stated) are that

 

a) ownership transfers upon delivery.

b) seller is responsible for ensuring delivery of item in the condition described in the sale

c) any damage or loss remains on the seller (for which s/he can insure if s/he wants)

d) even in a "no returns" sales thread, books that are damaged in transit can be returned for full refund.

 

it makes no sense to me that the buyer should be deciding insurance, since they arent the one packing the book.... but thanks to the discussion on this I'll be sure to never decline insurance from a seller, instead putting the onus back on the seller since that's where it should belong.

[CatskillMike]

As stated a few times, the seller can stand on his head and claim either version of FOB to Paypal. I believe that point is moot, the buyer wins hands down when using Paypal.

 

I believe it was Comix4fun that stated he was able to initiate a USPS claim as a buyer. My postmaster wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. The insurance is for the sender, and the sender only, as he is the beneficiary of the insurance policy. The seller is the one who took the insurance out, even though he might have gotten the buyer to pay for it.

 

Now, if you look at FOB shipping , what stops a crappy seller from slapping the merchandise in a flimsy box or envelope since he is absolved of any shipping responsibility? Not a good situation.

[CatskillMike]

I also believe this discussion should be moved to the General Discussion thread, as this is the probation thread.

[porcupine48]

QUESTION

 

To nominate someone for PL or HOS, you have to mention it here 3 days along with a PM stating that in 3 days you are nominating them for the PL or HOS?

 

I have decided to give the party I am having difficultly with 5 days to get their mess together and that I will be nominating them in a week from now, so if I want the choice made next Friday, I still have to nominate them on Tuesday?

 

I would send them the PM today letting them know you will be nominating them for the PL. If you decide to give them a couple of extra days then you can but by doing it now it doesn't tie you up if they keep flaking.

 

I have done that. Thanks Revat and CAHokie

Just my twoonie,but metalPSI has waited and been more than classy about this,he mentioned it to me quite some time ago.

Just wanted to say he is a good,classy fellow is all.

[comix4fun]

You are conflating a buyers refusal to pay for insurance costs with relinquishing their rights to claims for damages or loss.

 

 

No, actually, if you read what I wrote I clearly state that an agreement by a buyer to accept the responsibility for the item in transit, expressly stated, negates the sellers responsibility at the point of shipment as long as reasonable care is used in packing and the item was as promised at the point of shipment.

 

It's a concept as old as shipping.

 

I did read what you wrote.

 

 

 

 

No worms. You offer insurance. They take it and insurance can be claimed. They pass and you pack in a reasonable way it's on them for passing.

 

No returns is only undone for material breach ( you sent something materially different than agreed upon ) just like in any other business deal.

 

Pretty simple

 

Unless insurance is offered and the buyer expressly waives. Express waiver trumps damage in transit if the damage is the reason the item is substantially different than sold.

 

 

 

Your first couple of posts only address buyers declining insurance.

I have already pointed out that this does NOT mean the buyer is waiving FOB delivered

 

The seller can't simply say: "Do you want insurance on your books?" and assume a buyers "No" or "I don't need insurance" is an acceptance of FOB shipping point.

 

Now does that mean the seller and buyer can not agree to expressly change terms to FOB shipping point. Sure they can.

 

But as a practical matter I would caution you to only accept such terms from buyers you trust. Paypal will not review your contract with your buyer and will refund them out of hand for any claim, when items are not delivered or are not as described, due to shipping damage. Ebay used to be littered with claims of sellers who were talked into using untrackable First Class Mail international, due to high shipping costs and whose buyers initiated Item Not Received claims days after shipment. Paypal automatically upheld these cases.

 

Thus, feel free to establish your own terms all you like. Yes, they are a binding contract. But it won't help you get the money back out of Paypal when they refund your buyer.

 

 

 

Not simply decline....expressly waive.

 

I've dealt with people wanting the cheapest possible shipping option. At that point (when it impairs tracking or signature options ) I tell them that the option they are choosing is without insurance and if they really want it sent that way that I, although I will pack and ship safelt, cannot be responsible for what happens to it in transit given the choice they are making. If they agree to that, then it's on them.

 

I know that Ebay and paypal have swung to buyer's rights big time, but the way I ask for declarations from buyers who are penny-wise and pound-foolish I've been successful (the couple of times a parcel has gone missing) with having them side with me. Believe it or not, they will review the terms of the deal. Not that it's worth all that back and forth.

 

Paypal has swung so far in that direction that I've stopped shipping to some countries entirely and the international shipments I do make come with terms that the shipments must be priority or express speed with full tracking and insurance. Domestic the same way. It costs the buyers more as part of the price but it's not worth any hassles.

[comix4fun]

As stated a few times, the seller can stand on his head and claim either version of FOB to Paypal. I believe that point is moot, the buyer wins hands down when using Paypal.

 

I believe it was Comix4fun that stated he was able to initiate a USPS claim as a buyer. My postmaster wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. The insurance is for the sender, and the sender only, as he is the beneficiary of the insurance policy. The seller is the one who took the insurance out, even though he might have gotten the buyer to pay for it.

 

Now, if you look at FOB shipping , what stops a crappy seller from slapping the merchandise in a flimsy box or envelope since he is absolved of any shipping responsibility? Not a good situation.

 

 

I should have made a copy of the check USPS sent me. It was fast too.

 

FOB shipping doesn't exculpate negligence.