PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[N/A]

My question is, let's say the person really was nervous about the fact that the books were not "in hand". Would he be let off the hook if he admitted that? I know he said he wanted to move forward, but are second thoughts a terrible thing in this case? [/color]

 

If he had asked to be let out of the transaction he would have been. I have a recent example of doing just that and not bringing the transaction here.

[comix4fun]

Sorry but I don't see this as a punishable offense.

 

 

So you would be ok with a Buyer, agreeing to all terms of the sale, more than once, and agreeing to changes in terms and then filing a charge back with Pay Pal anyway?

 

He didn't state in his paypal complaint that he was worried about the book shipping after the dispute date, he directly called the seller's honesty into question.

 

 

[comix4fun]

 

This will be very unpopular but here it is... The pitchforks come out way too fast on these boards. The 30-day period allows for some cool down plus gives time for a buyer who possibly has an emergency bill come up pay for their transaction.

 

 

 

That's not what happened here. The buyer made inflammatory and accusatory claims to pay pal regarding the sellers honesty.

 

He did not contact anyone about emergency bills coming due. He agreed to a deal, agreed to it again with clarified terms and then set off to burn the seller down with pay pal. There's no need to become a revisionist here.

 

Why should anyone have to wait 30 days when the buyer has no intention of buying as evidenced by the pay pal charge back. This isn't a situation with someone shipping slowly and waiting the 30 days to get a package. This isn't a situation with a person ignoring PM's or Emails and you give them the 30 days to answer. If the other party in your transaction makes it 100% clear they are not going to perform on day one, as the buyer here did, there is NO point is waiting another month.

 

That's what the list is for, when a deal is failed they get put on the list and given a chance to do the right thing by the person they wronged.

 

An extra 29 days isn't going to undo the pay pal charge back. Standing on ceremony here is futile and fruitless.

[comicdonna]

I've removed my Probation update as told to by Divad via PM, so apprently yes he does run the Probation show.

 

I thought after Michael's case not long ago that it was down to case by case with sellers getting stiffed. Oh well Jeff, only another 24 days before you can bring it up again.

 

My opinion is that there need to be two different clauses for adding people to the probation list (and this applies to both sellers & buyers):

 

1a) If a buyer tells the seller that they have no intention of paying for a book they've committed to, forcing the seller to wait 30 days before being able to add the dead-beat to the Probation list is ridiculous. And it defeats the purpose of the list - to warn other sellers about problematic buyers.

 

1b) This applies to sellers as well - if a seller tells a buyer that he's not going to honor a sale, again, waiting 30 days before adding the seller to the Probation list is silly. There needs to be a fast-track option for these cases (say 3 days).

 

2a) If a buyer is slow in paying, doesn't quickly respond to PM's, but hasn't said outright that they're not going to pay, the usual 30 days remain in effect.

 

2b) If a seller is slow in shipping, doesn't quickly respond to PM's, but hasn't said outright that they're not going to honor the sale, the usual 30 days remain in effect.

 

Easy-peasy.

I don’t see it possible to argue against the points made above and I’m 100% in favor of this becoming the new guidelines.

 

Makes perfect sense.

I would be in favor of these new guidelines. If the buyer backs out without just cause, there is no reason to wait 30 days before adding that person to the probation list.

[Jeffro.]

 

The sellers here also have full time jobs. I personally don't mind waiting 30 days for a package.

 

You're very forgiving. Even an overseas package should (although not always) take less than 30 days.

 

And even part time comic sellers should never take that long to ship out your order, imo.

 

I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter. I get home from work at 3:30 and then my wife goes to work for 4:00. One of us has to be home all the time. I don't always have the time to make it to the post office when I would like. Sometimes it takes me 4 or 5 days to mail out a package, and in some cases a few days longer than that, but it's never taken me that long to send something out.

 

We are not unsympathetic (well I'm not anyway) towards sellers who may not be able to ship immediately, delays are sometimes understandable, but having to wait 30 days to receive a package (at least within the U.S.) is unreasonable.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2010 by Jeffro

[comix4fun]

 

The sellers here also have full time jobs. I personally don't mind waiting 30 days for a package.

 

You're very forgiving. Even an overseas package should (although not always) take less than 30 days.

 

And even part time comic sellers should never take that long to ship out your order, imo.

 

I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter. I get home from work at 3:30 and then my wife goes to work for 4:00. One of us has to be home all the time. I don't always have the time to make it to the post office when I would like. Sometimes it takes me 4 or 5 days to mail out a package, and in some cases a few days longer than that, but it's never taken me that long to send something out.

 

We are not unsympathetic (well I'm not anyway) towards sellers who may not be able to ship immediately, delays are sometimes understandable, but having to wait 30 days to receive a package (at least within the U.S.) is unreasonable.

 

 

 

Absolutely,

Communication is the key ingredient. As long as you keep the buyer/seller informed, tracking numbers , timing updates, etc. and everyone is respectful enough to treat the other person they way they want to be treated themselves then delays, issues and problems performing can all be understood and perhaps excused.

 

Just sayin'

 

Best,

Chris

[nocutename]

 

This will be very unpopular but here it is... The pitchforks come out way too fast on these boards. The 30-day period allows for some cool down plus gives time for a buyer who possibly has an emergency bill come up pay for their transaction.

 

 

 

That's not what happened here. The buyer made inflammatory and accusatory claims to pay pal regarding the sellers honesty.

 

He did not contact anyone about emergency bills coming due. He agreed to a deal, agreed to it again with clarified terms and then set off to burn the seller down with pay pal. There's no need to become a revisionist here.

 

Why should anyone have to wait 30 days when the buyer has no intention of buying as evidenced by the pay pal charge back. This isn't a situation with someone shipping slowly and waiting the 30 days to get a package. This isn't a situation with a person ignoring PM's or Emails and you give them the 30 days to answer. If the other party in your transaction makes it 100% clear they are not going to perform on day one, as the buyer here did, there is NO point is waiting another month.

 

That's what the list is for, when a deal is failed they get put on the list and given a chance to do the right thing by the person they wronged.

 

An extra 29 days isn't going to undo the pay pal charge back. Standing on ceremony here is futile and fruitless.

 

I am not defending the buyer here at all. Of course he used whatever means possible to get Paypal to reverse the charges. I don't agree to that but again, how long will until the transactions completed. Why has this question not been answered? When did the seller tell the buyer he could deliver the goods?

 

For me personally if someone wants to back out of a deal, that is fine because I would rather have a good transaction then forcing someone into a purchase. But that is me. I still feel that since this is a PRESALE it doesn't fall under the category that the seller is out any money. He did not purchase the items for the buyer. What was his intentions with the item before offering it for sale. Was he going to keep it or sale it. If the latter than just move on and sell it.

[nocutename]

 

The sellers here also have full time jobs. I personally don't mind waiting 30 days for a package.

 

You're very forgiving. Even an overseas package should (although not always) take less than 30 days.

 

And even part time comic sellers should never take that long to ship out your order, imo.

 

I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter. I get home from work at 3:30 and then my wife goes to work for 4:00. One of us has to be home all the time. I don't always have the time to make it to the post office when I would like. Sometimes it takes me 4 or 5 days to mail out a package, and in some cases a few days longer than that, but it's never taken me that long to send something out.

 

We are not unsympathetic (well I'm not anyway) towards sellers who may not be able to ship immediately, delays are sometimes understandable, but having to wait 30 days to receive a package (at least within the U.S.) is unreasonable.

 

 

I have waited for packages here but I don't mind because the rules of the forum is 30 days. I am comfortable with the sellers here and am confident that they will deliver it within the time frame. In the very unlikely event that I need something rush, I guess I would verify with the seller that they can deliver. Most of the purchases here are received within a week or so time frame.

[nocutename]

Sorry but I don't see this as a punishable offense.

 

 

So you would be ok with a Buyer, agreeing to all terms of the sale, more than once, and agreeing to changes in terms and then filing a charge back with Pay Pal anyway?

 

He didn't state in his paypal complaint that he was worried about the book shipping after the dispute date, he directly called the seller's honesty into question.

 

 

I would rather the buyer back out before the item is shipped than ship the item and be out twice. I understand that he lied but that is not why part of the reason he is on the list. That just accounts for his lack of character. I am not defending anyone here but again I don't think this type of presale warrants being on the list.

[Boozad]

When did the seller tell the buyer he could deliver the goods?

 

Presumably when they came back from CGC. And from what Jeff said the buyer was well aware of this.

 

For me personally if someone wants to back out of a deal, that is fine because I would rather have a good transaction then forcing someone into a purchase. But that is me.

 

And you're different to Jeff how? He's already said he would have gladly refunded but he didn't have time as the buyer filed a chargeback.

 

I still feel that since this is a PRESALE it doesn't fall under the category that the seller is out any money. He did not purchase the items for the buyer.

 

What?? The books are at CGC having been graded. Therefore the guy is buying a finished product, just not in Jeff's hands. This happens all the time on the boards, presales. You go into a presale thread and take a book, pay for it then file a chargeback before the seller even has the books back. Guaranteed you'd end up being discussed in here.

 

Basically you're saying it's OK to around throwing up the little guy anywhere on presales then filing chargebacks. Correct?

[nocutename]

Boozad, how long does it take CGC to return the book? If it is going to be after that 60-day paypal window then it is acceptable for a buyer to be nervous.

 

So because he did a chargeback over doing the correct thing and requesting a refund he deserves to go on the list. Hmmm that is a bit self serving for me. But in any event, it is tough when a buyer who is not part of the community purchases. You don't know if he understands CGC turnaround time, etc. I understand that there are many presales on the boards.

 

My thoughts are simple, if the seller is out money then he has a gripe. If the seller purchased x item for a buyer in a presale I can see where the seller is out money. However, when the seller just presells something if the sale falls through well he is not technically out money as he does not have the item in hand to sell yet anyway.

 

I am not going to convince anyone so I am going to stop posting on this thread. But can you say that the item would be delivered within the 60 day paypal window? The seller did mention that he told the guy afterwards that the item is a presale but did he mention the turnaround time?

[Boozad]

Well the fact that I know the books have been graded makes me think the buyer would know they've been graded and will be in Jeff's hands next week. Can't say for definite but I'd have thought so.

 

However, when the seller just presells something if the sale falls through well he is not technically out money as he does not have the item in hand to sell yet anyway

 

How do you work this out? He's paid for the raw book, he's paid for two lots of shipping and he's paid for grading fees. He's done this with the sole intention of selling the book, the only difference is CGC have the books and not the seller. So how is he not out any money?

 

 

[djc81]

As a buyer who is currently involved in a pre-sale deal with Jeff all I can say is he's been great with me and has made everything very clear the whole way through (thumbs u

 

As far as the deal being discussed goes I think the buyer just panicked when he decided he didn't want or couldn't afford the deal anymore and made the mistake of going to Paypal first rather than contacting Jeff.

 

[Dick Pontoon]

No that all this discussion isn't worth having, but it's ironic mikeggg has made all of 2 posts in 2 months since he joined; I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear from him again.

[kdoginohio]

some people have lives.

[divad]

 

This will be very unpopular but here it is... The pitchforks come out way too fast on these boards. The 30-day period allows for some cool down plus gives time for a buyer who possibly has an emergency bill come up pay for their transaction.

 

 

 

That's not what happened here. The buyer made inflammatory and accusatory claims to pay pal regarding the sellers honesty.

 

He did not contact anyone about emergency bills coming due. He agreed to a deal, agreed to it again with clarified terms and then set off to burn the seller down with pay pal. There's no need to become a revisionist here.

 

Why should anyone have to wait 30 days when the buyer has no intention of buying as evidenced by the pay pal charge back. This isn't a situation with someone shipping slowly and waiting the 30 days to get a package. This isn't a situation with a person ignoring PM's or Emails and you give them the 30 days to answer. If the other party in your transaction makes it 100% clear they are not going to perform on day one, as the buyer here did, there is NO point is waiting another month.

 

That's what the list is for, when a deal is failed they get put on the list and given a chance to do the right thing by the person they wronged.

 

An extra 29 days isn't going to undo the pay pal charge back. Standing on ceremony here is futile and fruitless.

 

These are all valid points, but you act as though the PayPal "chargeback" (which it isn't, btw, it's a dispute) is instantaneous (it isn't.) The dispute is not settled. When the dispute settles, or after 30 days, the seller can request that the "buyer" be put on the list. I really don't see the fanfare, except that the seller may be ticked off big time.

[divad]

The "buyer" will be put on the list, if in fact, he posted an and didn't pay or resolve the matter with the seller after 30 days. Period.

[divad]

As a buyer who is currently involved in a pre-sale deal with Jeff all I can say is he's been great with me and has made everything very clear the whole way through (thumbs u

 

As far as the deal being discussed goes I think the buyer just panicked when he decided he didn't want or couldn't afford the deal anymore and made the mistake of going to Paypal first rather than contacting Jeff.

 

As much as Jeff may appreciate it, these kind of comments are meaningless.

[divad]

No that all this discussion isn't worth having, but it's ironic mikeggg has made all of 2 posts in 2 months since he joined; I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear from him again.

 

Yep, my guess is that he will do nothing and go on the list. Better yet, PayPal will rule against him.

[mschmidt]

The "buyer" will be put on the list, if in fact, he posted an and didn't pay or resolve the matter with the seller after 30 days. Period.

 

No. If the paypal dispute is finished before 30 days have passed, the buyer goes on the list then. Period.