PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Sqeggs]

All it takes is one really bad transaction to nullify a thousand positive transactions. If that bad transaction is not allowed to be mentioned in a feedback thread then the positive transactions will not be very instructive.

 

When I complete a transaction and the other person asks that I provide them kudos I gladly comply. But adding my "Great transaction! A+++!!!111" to the other dozen in the person's feedback doesn't exactly provide much value without a way to appropriately contextualize it.

 

If others find utility in the kudos thread, that's great. I, myself, do not.

 

Generally, agreed.

 

My concern is that negative feedback also needs context, but being negative it creates much more damage and is subject to much more abuse.There are many possible reasons a person may be unhappy with a transaction, but not all of them will be generally or universally valid.

 

So I'm saying that for the negative feedback to be both useful and fair it must be about only such things as, if true, would be viewed as negative by all or at least by most- so a stricter criteria and it should have to be justified. I see the PL process as providing that context.

 

Not being argumentative, but what about seller shortcomings that are not PL worthy but would still be useful for buyers to know about? For example, a seller who takes three weeks to ship a book. Or one who ships with obviously inadequate packaging.

 

Being able to raise these points in a kudos thread (or, I guess, it would have to become a "feedback" thread) would be a way of getting a sloppy or lazy seller to shape up. The seller could always come on the thread and dispute whatever was said about him or provide an extenuating circumstance. Delayed shipping because of an illness or emergency, for example.

[crassus]

Not being argumentative, but what about seller shortcomings that are not PL worthy but would still be useful for buyers to know about? For example, a seller who takes three weeks to ship a book. Or one who ships with obviously inadequate packaging.

 

Being able to raise these points in a kudos thread (or, I guess, it would have to become a "feedback" thread) would be a way of getting a sloppy or lazy seller to shape up. The seller could always come on the thread and dispute whatever was said about him or provide an extenuating circumstance. Delayed shipping because of an illness or emergency, for example.

 

Fair enough, and nothing wrong with being argumentative.

 

My issue is that for problems short of PL worthy there is a greater level of subjectivity about it that becomes very imprecise and largely unverifiable. Slow shipping vs fast shipping, secure packaging vs inadequate packaging are all relative and also relative vis a vis buyer satisfaction.

 

If the packaging is chronically and objectively inadequate its going to produce sooner or later returns and demands for refunds, which if they are not satisfied will end up on the PL, and if satisfied should rationally encourage the seller to improve the packaging for the sake of the profit margin if nothing else.

 

If the shipping is objectively by community standards chronically slow sooner or later the seller will ship something so late it will cross the PL line (and it only takes once) but otherwise there will be the same diminishing returns in the customer base, supposing that many people really care about the slow shipping.

 

I guess I'm comfortable for things short of PL worthy for the market to grind it out, because that assumes that any shortcomings are chronic, and not accidents or occasional lapses.

 

 

 

[bababooey]

If anyone is interested in reviewing some of the discussions surrounding creation of the kudos forum.

 

Kudos forum intro by Arch.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=202687&Number=4277590#Post4277590

 

And the next instruction from Arch on clarifying some things.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=203158&Number=4289161#Post4289161

[universal soldier]

All it takes is one really bad transaction to nullify a thousand positive transactions. If that bad transaction is not allowed to be mentioned in a feedback thread then the positive transactions will not be very instructive.

 

When I complete a transaction and the other person asks that I provide them kudos I gladly comply. But adding my "Great transaction! A+++!!!111" to the other dozen in the person's feedback doesn't exactly provide much value without a way to appropriately contextualize it.

 

If others find utility in the kudos thread, that's great. I, myself, do not.

 

Incidentally, David Ortiz just dropped a major "F bomb" on live TV. I wonder if NESN will apologize...

 

All is forgiven.

 

https://twitter.com/FCC

 

The FCC ‏@FCC 9h

 

David Ortiz spoke from the heart at today's Red Sox game. I stand with Big Papi and the people of Boston - Julius

[Ryan.]

Good. After the horrific week we just had I doubt childrens' innocence is going to be shattered by some fiery speech-making.

[Max Carnage]

My thought is as follows. Until the book reaches the buyer it is the sellers responsibility. It is the job of the seller to pack the book in such a way that it should not be damaged in shipment. Personally I would either offer a partial refund to the point that would make the buyer feel good at the level of the book they received and not what was supposed to be purchased or offer a full refund minus return shipping. Just my

 

this is the kind of post that helps resolve problems, especially for a relatively new member. i've started negotiations with the other boardie, let's hope it goes well.

 

+1, it's the sellers job to make things right. That's the price of doing business. What if he did not get it at all? Would you not give a full refund?

 

of course i would, friend! and in light of this, i am trying to make things right with the buyer.

 

I would just like to mention I just got my books this weekend from zombizzy ( shipped to the UK ) and they are exactly as described and I'm happy with that, however I paid for the books ( $314 ) on 14 March, he said he's ship that day. He then told me on 6 April he was looking for the tracking number. The package shows it was shipped out on 8 April

[bababooey]

 

 

[Sqeggs]

Not being argumentative, but what about seller shortcomings that are not PL worthy but would still be useful for buyers to know about? For example, a seller who takes three weeks to ship a book. Or one who ships with obviously inadequate packaging.

 

Being able to raise these points in a kudos thread (or, I guess, it would have to become a "feedback" thread) would be a way of getting a sloppy or lazy seller to shape up. The seller could always come on the thread and dispute whatever was said about him or provide an extenuating circumstance. Delayed shipping because of an illness or emergency, for example.

 

Fair enough, and nothing wrong with being argumentative.

 

My issue is that for problems short of PL worthy there is a greater level of subjectivity about it that becomes very imprecise and largely unverifiable. Slow shipping vs fast shipping, secure packaging vs inadequate packaging are all relative and also relative vis a vis buyer satisfaction.

 

If the packaging is chronically and objectively inadequate its going to produce sooner or later returns and demands for refunds, which if they are not satisfied will end up on the PL, and if satisfied should rationally encourage the seller to improve the packaging for the sake of the profit margin if nothing else.

 

If the shipping is objectively by community standards chronically slow sooner or later the seller will ship something so late it will cross the PL line (and it only takes once) but otherwise there will be the same diminishing returns in the customer base, supposing that many people really care about the slow shipping.

 

I guess I'm comfortable for things short of PL worthy for the market to grind it out, because that assumes that any shortcomings are chronic, and not accidents or occasional lapses.

 

 

 

I see your point and most likely things will stay as they are with a praise only feedback thread. I have to say, though, that after a few marginal experiences buying from sellers I didn't know, I'm confining my purchases to the best known sellers or sellers I've had good experiences with. If there are many other people taking that view, then the lack of a true feedback thread may be depriving some good, but not well known, sellers of sales.

[Sqeggs]

My thought is as follows. Until the book reaches the buyer it is the sellers responsibility. It is the job of the seller to pack the book in such a way that it should not be damaged in shipment. Personally I would either offer a partial refund to the point that would make the buyer feel good at the level of the book they received and not what was supposed to be purchased or offer a full refund minus return shipping. Just my

 

this is the kind of post that helps resolve problems, especially for a relatively new member. i've started negotiations with the other boardie, let's hope it goes well.

 

+1, it's the sellers job to make things right. That's the price of doing business. What if he did not get it at all? Would you not give a full refund?

 

of course i would, friend! and in light of this, i am trying to make things right with the buyer.

 

I would just like to mention I just got my books this weekend from zombizzy ( shipped to the UK ) and they are exactly as described and I'm happy with that, however I paid for the books ( $314 ) on 14 March, he said he's ship that day. He then told me on 6 April he was looking for the tracking number. The package shows it was shipped out on 8 April

 

A seller shipping more than three weeks after he apparently said he would is an example of less than optimal -- but not PL worthy -- behavior that would be known to buyers if we had a true feedback thread rather than a kudos thread.

[Sqeggs]

If anyone is interested in reviewing some of the discussions surrounding creation of the kudos forum.

 

Kudos forum intro by Arch.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=202687&Number=4277590#Post4277590

 

And the next instruction from Arch on clarifying some things.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=203158&Number=4289161#Post4289161

 

I skimmed the two threads. Does Arch ever make a direct statement that the kudos thread is only for positive feedback? (Obviously, calling it a "kudos" thread rather than a "feedback" thread implies that.) Foolkiller has a couple of posts that seem to indicate that he assumes negative feedback is possible.

 

 

[bababooey]

If anyone is interested in reviewing some of the discussions surrounding creation of the kudos forum.

 

Kudos forum intro by Arch.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=202687&Number=4277590#Post4277590

 

And the next instruction from Arch on clarifying some things.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=203158&Number=4289161#Post4289161

 

I skimmed the two threads. Does Arch ever make a direct statement that the kudos thread is only for positive feedback? (Obviously, calling it a "kudos" thread rather than a "feedback" thread implies that.) Foolkiller has a couple of posts that seem to indicate that he assumes negative feedback is possible.

 

Skim harder!!

 

Prior to implementation all kudos were in one thread, parsing those down to member specific threads was the intent. Yes, differing opinions were voiced on what content should be allowed/not allowed within these kudos threads.

 

 

 

[Sqeggs]

So, Arch said this:

 

"What I think we will probably move towards (NOT YET, DON'T GET JUMPY - KUDOS ONLY RIGHT NOW) is that if a person ends up on the probation list or hall of shame, then a single post noting that fact could be placed in the feedback thread for a person. That way individual threads don't become big clumsy debates but instead are simple summaries of the end results of transactions - satisfactory or not. But the negative feedback would go through the current community filter before getting entrenched."

 

Do people on the PL have a note to that effect placed on their kudos thread? With respect to the phrase in bold, the current system is not really "satisfactory" or not, it's "good transaction" or "PL transaction." The not-so satisfactory, but not PL-worthy transactions aren't recorded anywhere.

 

Maybe that's what the community wants, but it makes the selling threads less attractive, at least to me.

[bababooey]

So, Arch said this:

 

"What I think we will probably move towards (NOT YET, DON'T GET JUMPY - KUDOS ONLY RIGHT NOW) is that if a person ends up on the probation list or hall of shame, then a single post noting that fact could be placed in the feedback thread for a person. That way individual threads don't become big clumsy debates but instead are simple summaries of the end results of transactions - satisfactory or not. But the negative feedback would go through the current community filter before getting entrenched."

 

Do people on the PL have a note to that effect placed on their kudos thread? With respect to the phrase in bold, the current system is not really "satisfactory" or not, it's "good transaction" or "PL transaction." The not-so satisfactory, but not PL-worthy transactions aren't recorded anywhere.

 

Maybe that's what the community wants, but it makes the selling threads less attractive, at least to me.

It's difficult to take things out of context but I'll try to address your point.

 

The kudos is a place for positive feedback.

The probation discussion/list is for disputes related to serious problems with a transaction.

 

There IS a gap, but that gap is virtually impossible to define and document for retrieval in a forum like this. Some people are very particular, some are more relaxed when it comes to service level expectations - communication is the best way to clarify understanding between parties.

 

The fact that there is a framework of rules, some fine detectives, information sharing and plenty of good honest people here is your only comfort - it is not a guarantee of anything - people need to make their own assessment when choosing to buy from any seller.

 

[I like pie]

Has anyone heard from Wushugushu(Simon)? He was supposed to pay for a book on April 4th but stopped posting on the forums shortly before that.

 

I had a previous deal with him that went ok and had his personal email but no luck there either.

[mangbus]

Has anyone heard from Wushugushu(Simon)? He was supposed to pay for a book on April 4th but stopped posting on the forums shortly before that.

 

I had a previous deal with him that went ok and had his personal email but no luck there either.

 

Same here. He and I had an agreement to provide me a refund of $15 since a slab he shipped was cracked. Sent him a reminder a few days ago. I'll give him a few more before I post the PM and do any nominating.

[Jimmy Linguini]

I also had a deal with Wushugushu.

 

I'm hoping something happened in his life and he'll come back here and respond to my messages.

 

Simon seems like a cool guy so I am giving him the benefit of doubt and hope you do too!

[mangbus]

I also had a deal with Wushugushu.

 

I'm hoping something happened in his life and he'll come back here and respond to my messages.

 

Simon seems like a cool guy so I am giving him the benefit of doubt and hope you do too!

 

For sure. He and I have completed a few transactions in both directions. My last communication from him was on March 17th I believe. Just hope all is okay.

[Jimmy Linguini]

I also had a deal with Wushugushu.

 

I'm hoping something happened in his life and he'll come back here and respond to my messages.

 

Simon seems like a cool guy so I am giving him the benefit of doubt and hope you do too!

 

For sure. He and I have completed a few transactions in both directions. My last communication from him was on March 17th I believe. Just hope all is okay.

 

I don't know who started the conversation. Me or Simon.

 

But I would feel like mess if I put him on the Probation list. He went out of his way to talk to me and ask me questions so, good guy that I have no problem flaking on a deal with.

[I like pie]

Although I hope he is ok as well, our deal was for a $750 book, which could be enough motive to stop posting.

[Jimmy Linguini]

My deal with him was a Nowhere Men 1 First print double signed for $120 shipped.