Manufactured Gold

[chrisco37]

Excellent post. I think you're letting Steve & the boys off too easily, though. CGC is not some huge corporation, with these guys just being some mid-level managers who are unable to affect corporate policy that's being decided 1000 miles above them. It's a small company (even its parent company is relatively small) and Steve certainly has a lot of pull in formulating its policies.

 

You're probably right, Tim. I still stand by my post. I choose to "judge" the graders on their own merits as people. I will not support the company, CGC, but I will not hold the employ of said company against Steve Borock, Paul Litch, or Shawn Caffrey, all of which I have nothing but the highest regard for as people.

 

The issues raised in the past few years are important to the hobby, IMO, but we are still dealing with "funny books", and the friendships I've made with them far outweigh any monetary value (of course, the $$ I've sunk into the hobby is minute compared to alot of people here). Of course, this doesn't mean I don't think that THE grading authority in the hobby should be 100% legit.

 

Yep, I'm a fence-sitter.

 

Oh, and to correct my above post, I am mistaken. The last CGC book I bought was last September; Atom (and Hawkman) #45, CGC 7.5 from Bob Storms.

[Foolkiller]

There's really not much to say here on this thread other than this, the explanations offered are just simply unsatisfying. I can't find any good rationale -- and I continue to grow more and more suspect. I think more people need to be noticed of some of these "policies" and "standards" and unfortunately, we need to take a look at what's going on with the future of graded comics.

 

All of the slabs I currently own I would happily crack out and keep raw -- and that may well be the future here. But -- I'm not swearing off all slabs and divesting myself of all my books. It is difficult for me to imagine ever wanting to take that next step and investing top level dollar for any book anymore.

[chrisco37]

It is difficult for me to imagine ever wanting to take that next step and investing top level dollar for any book anymore.

 

Amen, Brian.

 

As I stated before, I'd rather "take my chances" with a well-known, established dealer like Bob, Vince, or Harley than to play the "CGC game" (one htat we know is being manipulated by those "in the know").

 

It's a sad day (yet again) for those of us that have put trust into the system.

[MasterChief]

All:

 

I cannot believe Steve Borock’s post. Just what is he talking about – it’s OK to dissemble books now?

 

Unbelievable!

 

You know I started that Sensation Comics #35 post off with the Nelson quote for a reason. If you recall, Nelson was responding to Red Hook’s assertion that he (Nelson) did in fact dissemble books for pressing purposes. Nelson insisted unequivocally that he did not. He said it was too much of a gamble because CGC would nail the book with a purple label, he would lose money as a result, and his reputation would be ruined.

 

Nelson’s rational was his whole justification for NOT disassembling books for the purposes of pressing, as the reward didn’t outweigh the risk. He was not willing to do something that could possibly endanger his livelihood – period!

 

Now we have the Borock response.

 

A response which cements CGC position as to the fact that they do not consider disassembly to be restoration. A response that now calls into question Nelson integrity and honesty in his assertion to the collecting community that he did not disassemble books for the purpose of pressing, because as it turns out, CGC never considered disassembly to be restoration in the first place – which Nelson claimed they did, but probably knew otherwise!

 

This is nuts. My head is hurting just thinking about it.

 

Borock has opened the door for Nelson and his ilk to proceed full steam ahead with tearing books apart. Moreover, it calls into question every book that has ever been pressed as to whether it was disassembled in the first place, and if any other work was performed on it that is not “detectable”.

 

Where does this stuff end? Honestly, help me out here...where does it end. I’d really like to know.

 

Are we going to see in the future that it’s ok to do solvent cleaning as long as you can’t smell the chemicals while holding the book a distance of three feet from your face...or some other knee-jerk rational like that?

 

I mean really...what is next?

 

--MC

[tth2]

All:

 

I cannot believe Steve Borock’s post. Just what is he talking about – it’s OK to dissemble books now?

 

Unbelievable!

 

You know I started that Sensation Comics #35 post off with the Nelson quote for a reason. If you recall, Nelson was responding to Red Hook’s assertion that he (Nelson) did in fact dissemble books for pressing purposes. Nelson insisted unequivocally that he did not. He said it was too much of a gamble because CGC would nail the book with a purple label, he would lose money as a result, and his reputation would be ruined.

 

Nelson’s rational was his whole justification for NOT disassembling books for the purposes of pressing, as the reward didn’t outweigh the risk. He was not willing to do something that could possibly endanger his livelihood – period!

 

Now we have the Borock response.

 

A response which cements CGC position as to the fact that they do not consider disassembly to be restoration. A response that now calls into question Nelson integrity and honesty in his assertion to the collecting community that he did not disassemble books for the purpose of pressing, because as it turns out, CGC never considered disassembly to be restoration in the first place – which Nelson claimed they did, but probably knew otherwise!

 

This is nuts. My head is hurting just thinking about it.

 

Borock has opened the door for Nelson and his ilk to proceed full steam ahead with tearing books apart. Moreover, it calls into question every book that has ever been pressed as to whether it was disassembled in the first place, and if any other work was performed on it that is not “detectable”.

 

Where does this stuff end? Honestly, help me out here...where does it end. I’d really like to know.

 

Are we going to see in the future that it’s ok to do solvent cleaning as long as you can’t smell the chemicals while holding the book a distance of three feet from your face...or some other knee-jerk rational like that?

 

I mean really...what is next?

 

--MC

Great post. Well said.

[Ze-man]

 

To reiterate what Matt said.

 

 

 

But the parameters of what CGC deems restoration have been clearly laid out. Since my reputation is my foremost concern, I stick to those rules. When I press books, I do not break them.

 

 

Let me reiterate my position: if CGC ever caught a disassembled book, they would put it in a purple holder.

[batman_fan]

It is difficult for me to imagine ever wanting to take that next step and investing top level dollar for any book anymore.

 

Amen, Brian.

 

As I stated before, I'd rather "take my chances" with a well-known, established dealer like Bob, Vince, or Harley than to play the "CGC game" (one htat we know is being manipulated by those "in the know").

 

It's a sad day (yet again) for those of us that have put trust into the system.

 

I agree Brian, just not the time to be spending big bucks on any graded books until CGC gives a clear consise decription of their grading standard so collectors can decide for themselves the true "value" of CGC's service.

[esquirecomics]

Unless everyone joins together to publicly oppose these actions there is nothing to stop CGC and others from continuing down this path. These message boards, if they even exist six months from now, only reach a narrow audience.

[chrisco37]

Unless everyone joins together to publicly oppose these actions there is nothing to stop CGC and others from continuing down this path. These message boards, if they even exist six months from now, only reach a narrow audience.

 

Aye, there's the rub.

 

We can *spoon* and moan all we want here. Unless CGC's bottom line is affected, nothing will be done. It's up to "us" to spread the word and let everyone know what is going on.

 

If you're at a local Con, tell people. Give them the address to this forum!

Owners of shops, tell peoplle

If you're on another forum, tell people

-Once eBay open sup feedback/bidder lists, tell people

 

Direct them all to the forum.

 

The CCG only see's $$$. The only way to institute change is to hit them where it hurts. Don't bid on Heritage (yeah, easy to say as some people are always looking for the quick buck; but, take a look at Zaid, he probably has more $$$ up for sale than you have in your collection, but he's not selling-out).

[FFB]

You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

You damaged the book when you disassembled it. You "restored" the book when you reassembled it. It's really that simple.

 

Paul, Steve, West, Mark, et al., you know I think you are all good people and that you try to do good things for the hobby. But this latest clarification of your policy on restoration needs reconsideration. I don't think you'd find much support for it, if any, in the marketplace. And if the marketplace as a whole doesn't agree with a position you take on the issue, I think you guys owe it to your customers (all of them) to follow the industry standards.

[esquirecomics]

I should state that I am not advocating any efforts to harm CGC's financial revenues. I don't see any reason why the ethical principles and ideals we so cherish and desire for our community cannot be one and the same with the interests of CGC.

 

Should CGC's policies change? Yes I believe they need to, but there are more than enough opportunities for CGC to continue to financially grow if it truly wishes to be the entity it led everyone to believe it was when it opened its doors.

 

We are at a crossroads. Choices are being made.

[chrisco37]

I should state that I am not advocating any efforts to harm CGC's financial revenues. I don't see any reason why the ethical principles and ideals we so cherish and desire for our community cannot be one and the same with the interests of CGC.

 

Should CGC's policies change? Yes I believe they need to, but there are more than enough opportunities for CGC to continue to financially grow if it truly wishes to be the entity it led everyone to believe it was when it opened its doors.

 

We are at a crossroads. Choices are being made.

 

I agree with you 100%, Marc. I do apologize for bringing your name into my post. I used your name as an example of a dealer of HG/rare books that practices "what they preach".

 

My thoughts are "my thoughts" and they do not reflect anyone elses thoughts regarding this issue.

[lou_fine]

Sounds like you are making the faulty assumption the staples had to be popped in the first place. Isn't it easy to swap wraps without disassembing the book or did we all forget about the Boy Comics #17 fiasco that went from a 4.0 to a 7.5 before finally settling in at a nice comfy 9.0.

 

Remeber that it's always possible that the staples were never closed in the first place. In this case, swapping and reswapping wraps or covers would simply not be considered to be restoration.

 

Grades don't jump from a 7 to an 8 inside cover and a 9 to a 9.4 outside cover without some form of outside intervention. If CGC dropped the ball on their grading standards then that would be more worrisome than missed restoration.

 

Harvey;

 

Well, if CGC can explain away books that can jump from 4.0 all the way up to 9.0 as non-resto activities, I don't see why it would be that difficult for them to explain relatively minor improvements in grade from 7.0 up to 8.0 or from 9.0 up to 9.4.

 

See, like I said last night, you guys on these boards were all worried and upset for no reason at all.

 

I knew that Steve and the gang at CGC could come up with a totally (in)credible and (un)reasonable explanation that would explain everything to everybody's (dis)satisfaction.

 

And to think that all of you guys had your shorts tied up in knots over this little misunderstanding. Have you no faith in the system after all these years.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Unless everyone joins together to publicly oppose these actions there is nothing to stop CGC and others from continuing down this path. These message boards, if they even exist six months from now, only reach a narrow audience.

 

Aye, there's the rub.

 

We can *spoon* and moan all we want here. Unless CGC's bottom line is affected, nothing will be done. It's up to "us" to spread the word and let everyone know what is going on.

 

If you're at a local Con, tell people. Give them the address to this forum!

Owners of shops, tell peoplle

If you're on another forum, tell people

-Once eBay open sup feedback/bidder lists, tell people

 

Direct them all to the forum.

 

The CCG only see's $$$. The only way to institute change is to hit them where it hurts. Don't bid on Heritage (yeah, easy to say as some people are always looking for the quick buck; but, take a look at Zaid, he probably has more $$$ up for sale than you have in your collection, but he's not selling-out).

 

I suggested a pamplet.....and got a strike for it.

[esquirecomics]

I should state that I am not advocating any efforts to harm CGC's financial revenues. I don't see any reason why the ethical principles and ideals we so cherish and desire for our community cannot be one and the same with the interests of CGC.

 

Should CGC's policies change? Yes I believe they need to, but there are more than enough opportunities for CGC to continue to financially grow if it truly wishes to be the entity it led everyone to believe it was when it opened its doors.

 

We are at a crossroads. Choices are being made.

 

I agree with you 100%, Marc. I do apologize for bringing your name into my post. I used your name as an example of a dealer of HG/rare books that practices "what they preach".

 

My thoughts are "my thoughts" and they do not reflect anyone elses thoughts regarding this issue.

 

No apologies necessary Chris. I appreciated your compliment. I just wanted to ensure no one interpreted my post in a way I did not intend.

 

CGC does us all a service by allowing these boards to continue especially as they become more of a vehicle - though deserved it might be - for criticism.

 

The question will be whether CGC will accept this criticism as constructive, which is how I intend it, or destructive by simply ignoring it all and continuing practices that appear to be contradictory to the good of the hobby (at least as it might be reflected in our board universe - a growing one I might add).

[Davenport]

Not sure if this has been posted before... a very long detailed fluff piece on Heritage:

 

The Dallas Observer Apr 27, 2006

 

There's a couple of choice quotes that adds to how surreal all this manipulative nonsense has become: (bold emphasis mine)

 

"From all accounts, the Forbes piece was widely circulated in the rare coin world. People were amazed that Halperin had owned up to all his misdeeds, which took place back when "the coin industry was more cowboy-ish," as one out-of-town coin dealer puts it. Those who feared him started to respect him, especially as Heritage converted to the religion of "transparency," a word every single person interviewed for this story used. It is, as Rohan says, "our buzzword."

 

And...

 

"They're not more transparent than anyone because they're the nicest guys in the world. It was a business decision, but a smart one. They realized by being upfront and giving people all the information available, they would make more money."

Five years ago, a typical coin auction brought in $15 million to $20 million. Today, Heritage can do that in the time it took to read this sentence. Probably just did."

 

Transparent?

[tth2]

Transparent?

Who provides the archive of scans that you use so regularly to find all the misdeeds of our hobby? It's amazing that you guys so easily take for granted something that no one else in this hobby offers, or has ever offered.

[Davenport]

Transparent?

Who provides the archive of scans that you use so regularly to find all the misdeeds of our hobby? It's amazing that you guys so easily take for granted something that no one else in this hobby offers, or has ever offered.

I don't take the archive for granted. It is what it is, one way Heritage creates it's mailing list: "The feature you are accessing requires a free membership."

 

It just strikes me as strange and bizarre that books can pass through Gallery experts, and pro-evaluation experts, but at the end of the day it's usually some messageboard poster who connects the dots so shenanigans become transparent.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

All:

 

I cannot believe Steve Borock’s post. Just what is he talking about – it’s OK to dissemble books now?

 

Unbelievable!

 

You know I started that Sensation Comics #35 post off with the Nelson quote for a reason. If you recall, Nelson was responding to Red Hook’s assertion that he (Nelson) did in fact dissemble books for pressing purposes. Nelson insisted unequivocally that he did not. He said it was too much of a gamble because CGC would nail the book with a purple label, he would lose money as a result, and his reputation would be ruined.

 

Nelson’s rational was his whole justification for NOT disassembling books for the purposes of pressing, as the reward didn’t outweigh the risk. He was not willing to do something that could possibly endanger his livelihood – period!

 

Now we have the Borock response.

 

A response which cements CGC position as to the fact that they do not consider disassembly to be restoration. A response that now calls into question Nelson integrity and honesty in his assertion to the collecting community that he did not disassemble books for the purpose of pressing, because as it turns out, CGC never considered disassembly to be restoration in the first place – which Nelson claimed they did, but probably knew otherwise!

 

This is nuts. My head is hurting just thinking about it.

 

Borock has opened the door for Nelson and his ilk to proceed full steam ahead with tearing books apart. Moreover, it calls into question every book that has ever been pressed as to whether it was disassembled in the first place, and if any other work was performed on it that is not “detectable”.

 

Where does this stuff end? Honestly, help me out here...where does it end. I’d really like to know.

 

Are we going to see in the future that it’s ok to do solvent cleaning as long as you can’t smell the chemicals while holding the book a distance of three feet from your face...or some other knee-jerk rational like that?

 

I mean really...what is next?

 

--MC

 

Well put MC.....and again, I request that everyone consider the Ewert FF # 3, which was originally a 9.0 Qualified (Staples Cleaned) when purchased from Heritage in May 05.

 

Ignore the whole trimming issue and concentrate on the following:

 

- This book was likely disassembled, and reassembled incorrectly, when it received the Green label the first time.

 

- Ewert must have been aware of the "cleaned staples" gimmick and supremely confident that he (or whoever was doing the work for him) would reassemble the book correctly. He paid top dollar for this green label book ($3,700+), because he was relatively assured of it coming back with a blue label.

 

- We can deduce that FF # 3 was then disassembled and reassembled AT LEAST twice before Blazingbob ever sent it back to be checked for trimming.

 

So, following the timeline, we can be relatively assured that this is not a new phenomenon at all. If Ewert was confident enough to bid aggressively for this book in May 05, we can likely trace this type of practice back at least a year and a half, possibly two years or more. The Sensation # 35 (being an old label book sold in 2003, and resold in 2004 with a blue label) would seem to suggest it goes back as far as 2003.

 

How does everyone feel about any high end purchases they bought in the last three years? I know I'm queasy.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I don't see any reason why the ethical principles and ideals we so cherish and desire for our community cannot be one and the same with the interests of CGC.

 

That of course would require a total sea-change in attitude at CGC.

 

But you don't see that as an obstacle?