Manufactured Gold

[Flaming_Telepath]

It boils down to...if you're good enough, we won't call it resto. If you're sh!te at it, you'll pay.

 

Someone told me once

That there's a right and wrong,

And that punishment

Would come to those

Who dare to cross the line.

 

Consequences dictate

Our course of action.

It doesnt matter what's right.

Its only wrong if you get caught.

If consequences dictate

My course of action

I should play god

And shoot you myself.

 

I'm very tired of waiting.

 

Maynard James Keenan and his obscure little band.

 

Tool. Is it on 'Undertow'?

[infinite_comics-migration]

No, the E.P. If I say the title of the song I'll get a strike

[Red Hook]

All of these new 'non-resto' procedures...

 

Were they all part of the services that PCS intended providing?

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I am still fascinated by Chris Freisen's non-presence within CGC. Where is he? I mean, how would you know if he actually closed up shop or not? It just seems like an obvious question. He's not listed among the grading team. He never posts. He hasn't been spotted at a CGC event as far as I know. Seems like CGC's chief restoration expert would have had a lot to contribute to the discussions here.....if he's even connected with CGC anymore.

[namralos]

I like the hypothetical about grading the disassembled book.

If you crack a 10.0 book out of its slab, CAREFULLY disassemble it,

and re-submit it -- COMPLETELY APART -- would it still grade in at 10.0?

If so, WHY?

If not, then reassembly improves the condition.

 

Now, I see that that "CGC line" redefines restoration so that "any work that is not easily detectible is not restoration." I recognize this. Therefore, dry-cleaning/erasure and pressing are not considered restoration -- EVEN THOUGH they improve the condition of the book. By similar reason, reassembly would not count as restoration.

 

BUT "married pages" DO count as restoration, right? And most modern books don't have the significant differences in staple position that earlier books had. So...if you check out two modern books that have staples similarly positioned, and swap their centerfolds, they're both restored. If you don't get caught, though, it ISN'T restoration.

[infinite_comics-migration]

All of these new 'non-resto' procedures...

 

Were they all part of the services that PCS intended providing?

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I am still fascinated by Chris Freisen's non-presence within CGC. Where is he? I mean, how would you know if he actually closed up shop or not? It just seems like an obvious question. He's not listed among the grading team. He never posts. He hasn't been spotted at a CGC event as far as I know. Seems like CGC's chief restoration expert would have had a lot to contribute to the discussions here.....if he's even connected with CGC anymore.

 

I was wondering the same thing when I read Steve's post in the GA section. Is he not naming the "restoration expert" here on purpose or am I just reading into it? Is there more than one Restoration expert? If there was more than one he would say "a resto expert" and not "the resto expert", no? Is Chris not THE Restoration expert?

 

"When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book."

[Flaming_Telepath]

Now, I see that that "CGC line" redefines restoration so that "any work that is not easily detectible is not restoration." I recognize this.

 

Well I don't. 'Restoration' is a process that involves certain actions.

 

Whether they are easily detectible or not is irrelevant. If the action was undertaken, the book is restored.

 

Remember Jason Ewert? His work was 'not easily detectible', so by the above definition, it wasn't restoration?

 

Oh, hang on, trimming isn't restoration, either....

[kc120us]

"As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration."

 

This is what it all boils down to isn't it?

 

Glue you can see, CT you can see, Sealed tears you can see etc..etc. All these things are tangible added components to a comic book with the intent to enahnce it's appearence. All these things are also easily seen to the trained eye. And all these things are considered added restoration.

 

Even if they are VERY done well, they are for all intentional purposes , detectable.

 

But disassembled, staple swapped/tucked, cover switcherood, dry cleaned, pressed , franken books..... while worked on to improve and enhance the book, are for the most part undetectable so we decided to not consider these procedures restoration.

 

So there, we are off the hook.

 

 

If they can't see it, it doesn't exist.

 

I can understand that they can't catch every comic that has been altered.

 

But to say that there is nothing wrong with altering a book as long as nothing was added... that I can't understand.

 

But I thought CGC had the original green label in their possession when it was resubmitted? How could they have missed the cover swap? It is very disheartening. Am I mistaken?

[codfish]

I think it is long overdue for CGC to FINALLY lay it all out for their customers as to what exactly their grading standards are. Matt Nelson knows. I want to know too.

 

Whatever the reality....it has to be better than this slow, torturous unraveling of these details that simply cast CGC in a terrible light. The underlying distain for their customer base is palpable.

 

Come on guys. Show your cards. Publish the ground rules so that the rest of us can play too!

 

Brad Hamann

 

Brad that will never happen. Clearly they are making the rules up as they go along. I have said for a few years now that CGC is NOT an assurance company though they try and pretend they are. When you look at proper QC models like ISO standards and such you will understand that people have put a huge amount of trust into a absolutely terrible assurance model.

 

The CGC system is inherently flawed because they regulate themselves. They are accountable to no one, they have no public published standards, no accreditation, and outside body to report to. If ISO accredited companies did any of this number fudging I guarantee that heads would roll and money would be lost.

 

I have been laughed at and "shouted down" for suggesting basic proper assurance models in the past so what bad continues to happen with CGC I consider to be the responsibility of the customers who support them. Continuing to trust that they "will do the right thing" is a lost cause if one continues to spend money then CGC will never correct their problems because all they see are the books and cash rolling in and relegate the "goof ups" the the back burners. (sarcasm here now) Since they are a small fraction of what they see in year.

 

Fact is people should be horrified each and everytime this happens because in assurance it is the trends that are what is most worrisome. The odd mistake here and there will often not cause grievous results because the system should both catch them and correct the problems causing them. Trends show that their is something inherently wrong with the system and that careful analysis of the system MUST be done and the problem rooted out.

 

CGC shows no concern and the system keeps failing the collector time and time again because the assurance model they have in place is flawed. It is at the point now where I regard all slabbed books with as much trepidation as I would non-slabbed books. Since I don't trust CGC's assurance model I do not trust their "final product".

 

I continue to be shocked that people actually still try and explain away these guffaws. I was once lablled as a PGX apologist and I am enjoying seeing some of those people try and explain away this corrupt CGC system.

 

Steve and the other employees read this I really have nothing against you as I do not know you personally but your assurance system bites and really needs to be fixed. Until that happens I will continue to have great mistrust in you guys.

[awe4one]

I will say the CGC apologists has dramatically shrunk in activity over the last year. Can't be a good thing for those lurkers looking for a little CGC love (i.e. regular and frequent CGC submitters) to balance things out...

 

But then again, some things are indefensable...

 

Jim

[namralos]

It was written:

"Whether they are easily detectible or not is irrelevant. If the action was undertaken, the book is restored.

Remember Jason Ewert? His work was 'not easily detectible', so by the above definition, it wasn't restoration?"

 

I reply:

According to the rules that appear to have been laid out here, no it is not. All of the hard-to-detect forms of restoration have been redefined so that they are not considered restoration. *POOF* -- Now, we're experts on restoration; we catch it every time.

 

The rule for restoration detection appears to be the simple adage:

 

"It ain't a crime if ya don't get caught."

[Flaming_Telepath]

It was written:

"Whether they are easily detectible or not is irrelevant. If the action was undertaken, the book is restored.

Remember Jason Ewert? His work was 'not easily detectible', so by the above definition, it wasn't restoration?"

 

I reply:

According to the rules that appear to have been laid out here, no it is not. All of the hard-to-detect forms of restoration have been redefined so that they are not considered restoration. *POOF* -- Now, we're experts on restoration; we catch it every time.

 

The rule for restoration detection appears to be the simple adage:

 

"It ain't a crime if ya don't get caught."

 

Yeah, sorry...I was confusing what is actually restoration and what CGC conveniently likes to think is restoration.

[chrisco37]

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I am still fascinated by Chris Freisen's non-presence within CGC. Where is he? I mean, how would you know if he actually closed up shop or not? It just seems like an obvious question. He's not listed among the grading team. He never posts. He hasn't been spotted at a CGC event as far as I know. Seems like CGC's chief restoration expert would have had a lot to contribute to the discussions here.....if he's even connected with CGC anymore.

 

No need to apologize, Brad. Nothing you've said is untrue.

[Flaming_Telepath]

 

Sorry to bring this up again, but I am still fascinated by Chris Freisen's non-presence within CGC. Where is he? I mean, how would you know if he actually closed up shop or not? It just seems like an obvious question. He's not listed among the grading team. He never posts. He hasn't been spotted at a CGC event as far as I know. Seems like CGC's chief restoration expert would have had a lot to contribute to the discussions here.....if he's even connected with CGC anymore.

 

No need to apologize, Brad. Nothing you've said is untrue.

 

Is he Possibly Certifying Somewhere else?

[batman_fan]

For myself, this most recent turn of events only gives me greater resolve to avoid CGC books even more. I am at the point where I don't belive it only applies to the high grade stuff. The money exists at all grade levels. Turn a Detective 31 from a 4.0 to a 5.5 and see the money roll in. No, I can imagine this same cr&p happens across the board. Given CGCs inability to detect Ewert trimmed books unless you tell them first they are Ewert books, the ever changing grading standards, inconsistent grading, spontaneous page quality changes, etc. etc. etc. I am truly disheartened at the entire industry. Probably my biggest fear is once comics are run into the ground, these same people that claim to want to help the hobby will move on to something else like original art to help it in a similar manner.

[tth2]

There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

Steve, by definition there was disassembly!

 

Tim,

 

Good luck with your Heritage sales.

 

And when you have recouped your considerable investment, plus hopefully netted a tidy profit, count your luck stars.

 

Best,

Jive

I will be making full disclosure (not that there is much to make) on these boards about the books I sell on Heritage. I can safely say that to my knowledge none has been pressed or disassembled, and in the case of the Western Penns I'm consigning, I've been told by Tom Hanlin/Linmoth, who is the person who submitted them to CGC, that they were not pressed or otherwise "maximized".

 

So collectors who care about this hobby should scarf them up to keep them out of the hands of those who are taking advantage of CGC's continued back-sliding. To be very blunt, I am stunned and appalled by CGC's new disclosure. It completely opens the door (hell, actually, it sends an engraved invitation) to disassembled pressing (the NEW way, not the OLD process described by Steve in his post).

[Norrin_Radd]

For myself, this most recent turn of events only gives me greater resolve to avoid CGC books even more. I am at the point where I don't belive it only applies to the high grade stuff.

 

I'm coming to that realization myself.

[chrisco37]

Brad that will never happen. Clearly they are making the rules up as they go along. I have said for a few years now that CGC is NOT an assurance company though they try and pretend they are. When you look at proper QC models like ISO standards and such you will understand that people have put a huge amount of trust into a absolutely terrible assurance model.

 

The CGC system is inherently flawed because they regulate themselves. They are accountable to no one, they have no public published standards, no accreditation, and outside body to report to. If ISO accredited companies did any of this number fudging I guarantee that heads would roll and money would be lost.

 

I have been laughed at and "shouted down" for suggesting basic proper assurance models in the past so what bad continues to happen with CGC I consider to be the responsibility of the customers who support them. Continuing to trust that they "will do the right thing" is a lost cause if one continues to spend money then CGC will never correct their problems because all they see are the books and cash rolling in and relegate the "goof ups" the the back burners. (sarcasm here now) Since they are a small fraction of what they see in year.

 

Fact is people should be horrified each and everytime this happens because in assurance it is the trends that are what is most worrisome. The odd mistake here and there will often not cause grievous results because the system should both catch them and correct the problems causing them. Trends show that their is something inherently wrong with the system and that careful analysis of the system MUST be done and the problem rooted out.

 

CGC shows no concern and the system keeps failing the collector time and time again because the assurance model they have in place is flawed. It is at the point now where I regard all slabbed books with as much trepidation as I would non-slabbed books. Since I don't trust CGC's assurance model I do not trust their "final product".

 

I continue to be shocked that people actually still try and explain away these guffaws. I was once lablled as a PGX apologist and I am enjoying seeing some of those people try and explain away this corrupt CGC system.

 

Steve and the other employees read this I really have nothing against you as I do not know you personally but your assurance system bites and really needs to be fixed. Until that happens I will continue to have great mistrust in you guys.

 

Great post, codfish. I think you're dead on accurate.

 

I feel the same way as you do. I have nothing against CGC employees; as a matter of fact, I consider Steve to be one of my very best "comic friends" (yeah, it doesn't translate very well in written form, oh well...). He's one of the best people I've met thru this hobby. Regardless of how I feel about "CGC Policy", I know he's a good guy and he'd always be welcome anywhere I am. Same goes for Paul. Same goes for Shawn.

 

Regardless of my feelings towards the aforementioned, I do think there is a major issue with the company the work for, CGC. Since the inception of the boards (credit goes to them for allowing them to continue), "we" have uncovered numerous instances where the system has been manipulated. "We" have seen many instances of disintegrity.

 

It really is disheartening. Although I have not kept track, I can pretty much say, I have not bought a CGC graded book in close to 2 years. The recent events of the past year (remember, Ewert was only 14 months ago) have solidified my position. I'd rather "take my chances" with a dealer like Bob Storms, Metro, or Harley.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards the graders. I really do like those guys. I have never, and will never, say something negative about them. My stance is against their employer. I do hope that this will not change their opinion of me, but if it does so be it.

[Red Hook]

There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

Steve, by definition there was disassembly!

 

Tim,

 

Good luck with your Heritage sales.

 

And when you have recouped your considerable investment, plus hopefully netted a tidy profit, count your luck stars.

 

Best,

Jive

I will be making full disclosure (not that there is much to make) on these boards about the books I sell on Heritage. I can safely say that to my knowledge none has been pressed or disassembled, and in the case of the Western Penns I'm consigning, I've been told by Tom Hanlin/Linmoth, who is the person who submitted them to CGC, that they were not pressed or otherwise "maximized".

 

So collectors who care about this hobby should scarf them up to keep them out of the hands of those who are taking advantage of CGC's continued back-sliding. To be very blunt, I am stunned and appalled by CGC's new disclosure. It completely opens the door (hell, actually, it sends an engraved invitation) to disassembled pressing (the NEW way, not the OLD process described by Steve in his post).

 

If you really meant what you just wrote, you would consign those books to someone on the up and up like Bob Storms (or the equivalent) and send a message to Heritage that enough is enough. Money is the only language they speak and that would get their attention more than any verbal declarations of outrage.

[tth2]

I have nothing against CGC employees; as a matter of fact, I consider Steve to be one of my very best "comic friends" (yeah, it doesn't translate very well in written form, oh well...). He's one of the best people I've met thru this hobby. Regardless of how I feel about "CGC Policy", I know he's a good guy and he'd always be welcome anywhere I am. Same goes for Paul. Same goes for Shawn.

 

Regardless of my feelings towards the aforementioned, I do think there is a major issue with the company the work for, CGC. Since the inception of the boards (credit goes to them for allowing them to continue), "we" have uncovered numerous instances where the system has been manipulated. "We" have seen many instances of disintegrity.

 

It really is disheartening. Although I have not kept track, I can pretty much say, I have not bought a CGC graded book in close to 2 years. The recent events of the past year (remember, Ewert was only 14 months ago) have solidified my position. I'd rather "take my chances" with a dealer like Bob Storms, Metro, or Harley.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards the graders. I really do like those guys. I have never, and will never, say something negative about them. My stance is against their employer. I do hope that this will not change their opinion of me, but if it does so be it.

Excellent post. I think you're letting Steve & the boys off too easily, though. CGC is not some huge corporation, with these guys just being some mid-level managers who are unable to affect corporate policy that's being decided 1000 miles above them. It's a small company (even its parent company is relatively small) and Steve certainly has a lot of pull in formulating its policies.

[backtomarvel]

I have to say I find it nearly impossible to believe *someone* at CGC was unaware when old labels for relatively rare golden age books were removed from the database around the same time the same issue showed up to be graded.

 

Sure, they may be busy with thousands of books coming and going, but if they can't detect restoration on books they've already graded, how can they detect it on books they've never seen?

 

Two unrelated questions:

 

1-- Is it just me or did it sound like Borock knew the staples had been and the covers switched? Sounds like detection to me which means CGC knows who did it. Do they give uber-resto checks to all of those submitter's books?

 

2 -- Is it just me or do I recall from one of the heated Ewert threads that someone from CGC said it was going to begin scanning some books for their own database? If so, is it going to be made public like Heritage's?