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Manufactured Gold

Started by MasterChief,

2,576 posts in this topic

Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
So how are you guys enjoying being played as total insufficiently_thoughtful_persons?

 

I'm not enjoying it one bit.

 

 

Red

 

Me neither, but we keep sucking it all up...and Matt Nelson's auctions continue to thrive, and Heritage keeps 'setting new records', and Bill Hughes' catalogue is soooo high class and glossy that you can just smell the $$$$$$s rolling through his tills.

 

So, until we are prepared to do something, as a cohesive protest, and not buy sh!te from con-men, it's not going to change. frown.gif

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

Steve, by definition there was disassembly!

 

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration. Almost all of the time that a comic book is disassembled and reassembled, restoration is performed to it because the reason that it was taken apart was to restore it. The disassembled pressing I mention is a primitive and invasive method of pressing that can result in the book receiving a lower grade and that is why anyone should discourage it.

 

Of course this may be Matt Nelson's biggest trade secret...that he already knew this was ok, while still allowing others to think it's not.

 

So, an expert restorer can disassemble a book, spot press it (without the soaking), re-attach centerfolds and/or the cover, or heck even substitute a better cover as long as they can re-align the staples correctly?

 

I don't get this at all.

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nik

nik

Posted
Posted

Its a Catch 22 isn't it.

 

You give a grade on a raw book you are selling, and buyers will doubt it.

 

You sell a slabbed book with a grade given, and now it looks like buyers will still doubt it.

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Ze-man

Ze-man

Posted
Posted

 

So, until we are prepared to do something, as a cohesive protest, and not buy sh!te from con-men, it's not going to change.

 

 

I will go on record right now and state.

 

I will not ever purchase a slabbed book again. I just dont have the stomach for it anymore.

 

It's a sad, sad day, aint it? frown.gif

 

 

 

Ze-

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awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted

Susan Cicconi from the OS Grading Guide V2 (I don't consider V3 a credible guide due to its multitude of inconsistencies):

 

"I truly feel that once you remove staples from a comic book, you are altering the book; therefore I would consider this restoration. It is almost impossible to put the original staples back in the exact same way as when the book was manufactured."

 

I guess CGC is making this stuff up as they go along...

 

Jim

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
Its a Catch 22 isn't it.

 

You give a grade on a raw book you are selling, and buyers will doubt it.

 

You sell a slabbed book with a grade given, and now it looks like buyers will still doubt it.

 

It hasn't quite filtered down to the rest of the market yet, Nik...but it will do.

 

And then all of these shenanigans will come home to roost.

 

But by then, Heritage and their cohorts will have made their millions, leaving the buyers holding the tainted Frankenbooks. frown.gif

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plitch

plitch

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You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

893blahblah.gif

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

Why? Steve Borock has just said that it's only resto when something is ADDED.

 

Not SUBSTITUTED.

 

So everything else must be good, yes? confused-smiley-013.gif

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JiveTurkeyMoFo

JiveTurkeyMoFo

Posted
Posted
There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

Steve, by definition there was disassembly!

 

Tim,

 

Good luck with your Heritage sales. 893crossfingers-thumb.gif

 

And when you have recouped your considerable investment, plus hopefully netted a tidy profit, count your luck stars.

 

Best,

Jive

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

You have a comic book in front of you. It has no staples. You take some staples from the exact same issue from your collection and put them back in the book. You just re-assembled a book.

 

Did that restore the book? If at one point the book was without staples, whether you did it or not, or no matter what the length of time, you still took a book that had no staples and replaced them.

 

As for the "marrying" of books, I'd love to know how you guys could tell with any high degree of certanty. I know this latest revelation has shook my confidence.

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plitch

plitch

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The last line from my post:

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

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Red Hook

Red Hook

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I think it is long overdue for CGC to FINALLY lay it all out for their customers as to what exactly their grading standards are. Matt Nelson knows. I want to know too.

 

Whatever the reality....it has to be better than this slow, torturous unraveling of these details that simply cast CGC in a terrible light. The underlying distain for their customer base is palpable.

 

Come on guys. Show your cards. Publish the ground rules so that the rest of us can play too!

 

Brad Hamann

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mica

mica

Posted
Posted
The last line from my post:

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

Paul, in a way aren't you rewarding the guy who gets the staples lined up perfectly. Your earlier post made it sould like it was too risky, but there's bound to be someone with a GAMBLING mentality to give it a shot.

 

Obviously we've seen it, and the payoff seemed worth the risk of possibly getting the green label.

 

A few hours playing the game of OPERATION and the "steady hand" seems like a good training kit.

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Norrin_Radd

Norrin_Radd

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

Any comic that has been disassembled should have that is BOLD & CAPS on the right side of the label. Maybe it hasn't been "restored" but it's definately been ALTERED.

 

 

Would the fact that the comic has been disassembled be in the graders notes?

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awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

Look past the obvious and maybe you'll understand...disassembly has been and is considered resto. Nothing has changed other you all dictating it isn't...

 

You all should be following hobby accepted resto policy...not making up your own as you go along. That's not impartiality...it's following your own rules and be damned what collectors think...

 

Jim

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Ze-man

Ze-man

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

OK,

#1, thanks for offering your view on the matter.

 

#2, Was the Sensation #35 listed earlier in this thread just missed by CGC? It has no notations mentioning the switch, or swapped covers.

 

#3, Can you tell near 100% of the time when this swapping , staple removal practice occurs? If so, all I ask is thatyou do what you have already stated. Put this information in BOLD CAPS on the label , no matter what color label that might be.

 

From the outside looking in I hope you understand it looks like you are deciding what we the consumer needs to know. I just wish you put it ALL on the label, notes, thoughts, personal observations., random doodles, AlLL of it.

Make it more personal, as opposed to extremely sterile.

 

You cater to the sellers needs more then the consumers because the dealers obviously bring home the bacon.

 

That is how I see it from the cheap seats.

 

IMHO

 

 

My post is all over the map, as is this issue. It includes an awful lot of grey area..

 

 

 

 

Ze-

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Davenport

Davenport

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

So a highly skilled paper mechanic can disassemble a comic, dry clean and re-press each individual folio, and reassemble it all back together? And as long as no damage occurs during the process that's acceptable? A "Universal" as far as assigning it a CGC grade?

 

And obviously the intent of the whole process is to create something BETTER, more valuable.

 

confused.gifconfused.gif

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backtomarvel

backtomarvel

Posted
Posted
You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Retorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

Swapping, or substituting is called "MARRIED" and will get a green label. It will be noted on the right side of the label in BOLD & CAPS. The details are listed at the center of the label in the "Grading Text" field in CAPS.

 

Why would anyone do what you outlined? The only reason to remove staples is to do *something* to the book, not just to do it for the sake of doing it.

 

Sounds like CGC is giving everyone the benefit of the doubt about their intent in removing staples ... and example after example shows that benefit of the doubt is misplaced.

 

I also have to say I'm now very curious about what submitters knew this and when ... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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