Manufactured Gold

[Ze-man]

And obviously the intent of the whole process is to create something BETTER, more valuable.

 

 

 

Intent

 

To me personally that says it all.

 

Results do not matter, it was the intent of what was done that should be judged equally. Not if it was done well, or poorly.

 

The book was worked on with the intent to improve it. Adding material, or not. That is where my problem with this lies.

 

Ze-

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

As for the "marrying" of books, I'd love to know how you guys could tell with any high degree of certanty.

 

Simple answer: they can't. They can't even consistently get the Qualified with Staples Cleaned right.

 

Remember the Ewert FF # 3? If memory serves, that book started out its life as a Qualified 9.0 (staples cleaned).

 

Oh wait, what am I thinking? After being disassembled, TRIMMED, then reassembled CORRECTLY, it got the Universal 8.5 label.

 

Sorry. My bad.

 

Again, its only vaguely wrong if you're caught. And even then, if you do it correctly (and pay another submission fee), chances are you'll get the BLOP. (Blue Label of Profit).

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

BTW, if anyone wants a link to the Heritage page with the FF # 3:

 

FF # 3 9.0 (Qualified)

 

Many people at the time wondered why someone would pay $3,700+ for a Qualified book when their was so much downside risk of the "cleaned" staples being detected again.....

 

..because the "cleaned staples" designation has nothing to do with the staples at all, its simply a synonym for improper reassembly.

 

So, we can deduce the purchaser (Ewert) knew how the game was played and then got the right person to do the work?

[namralos]

Let's throw out an "impossible hypothetical" -- I love those.

 

I go back to 1938 and buy a nice copy of Action #1 and disassemble it.

There are 68 pages, including the cover. That means 16 spreads and the cover.

I keep the staples, and sell the spreads and cover to people all around the world.

 

Those people keep the spreads until 2006.

One guy "marries" the centerfold to his copy of the book, without adding any holes.

Another guy "marries" the cover to his copy...again without adding any holes.

 

After the years have passed, I buy all the pieces back and reassemble the book using the original staples. I get it dry-cleaned and pressed. Then I submit it to CGC.

 

Now, we don't consider that book to be "restored," do we? Even though each spread has received 60+ years of separate wear? Interesting proposition.

[mica]

Your analogy doesn't have to be limited to that particular book nor that long a time span.

I'm against the process even directly off the newstands and reassemby 5 minutes later.

[Davenport]

I think it is long overdue for CGC to FINALLY lay it all out for their customers as to what exactly their grading standards are. Matt Nelson knows. I want to know too.

 

Whatever the reality....it has to be better than this slow, torturous unraveling of these details that simply cast CGC in a terrible light. The underlying distain for their customer base is palpable.

 

Come on guys. Show your cards. Publish the ground rules so that the rest of us can play too!

 

Brad Hamann

Looking back it's like an undeclared effort was made to stuff as much manipulation as possible under the blue Universal label.

 

A welcome mat for paper mechanic grifters...as long as nothing foreign is introduced, like a chemical or adhesive, make your play...

 

[namralos]

Yes, but the extreme case makes it more interesting.

Or at least more clear.

[Ze-man]

make your play...

 

 

And Resub away!

 

Ze-

[OldGuy]

Let's throw out an "impossible hypothetical" -- I love those.

 

I go back to 1938 and buy a nice copy of Action #1 and disassemble it.

There are 68 pages, including the cover. That means 16 spreads and the cover.

I keep the staples, and sell the spreads and cover to people all around the world.

 

Those people keep the spreads until 2006.

One guy "marries" the centerfold to his copy of the book, without adding any holes.

Another guy "marries" the cover to his copy...again without adding any holes.

 

After the years have passed, I buy all the pieces back and reassemble the book using the original staples. I get it dry-cleaned and pressed. Then I submit it to CGC.

 

Now, we don't consider that book to be "restored," do we? Even though each spread has received 60+ years of separate wear? Interesting proposition.

 

Yea, plitch pretty much screwed the pooch with his hypothetical question.

[ArAich]

After the years have passed, I buy all the pieces back and reassemble the book using the original staples.

 

At this point no restoration has taken place...

 

 

I get it dry-cleaned and pressed.

 

Hello restoration....

 

JMO...but you guys are throwing out scenarios that CGC has a handle on...could someone here honestly say...that if an Action #1 was presented to them that had it's "2 covers" removed, transposed and replaced to the extent that it is virtually the same book in the same condition that this book should be flagged and forever noted as "restored"?!?!?!... What if you, as the owner, reversed the process in the future...and it was the same exact book as before albeit with the staples removed and reinserted???...

It's the same damn book in the same damn condition...

 

Maybe it's just me...but I don't understand this hysteria???...

[shadroch]

There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

Steve, by definition there was disassembly!

 

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration. Almost all of the time that a comic book is disassembled and reassembled, restoration is performed to it because the reason that it was taken apart was to restore it. The disassembled pressing I mention is a primitive and invasive method of pressing that can result in the book receiving a lower grade and that is why anyone should discourage it.

 

 

Looks like Steve could give vince a run in a tap-dancing contest

[Ze-man]

It's the same damn book in the same damn condition...

 

Maybe it's just me...but I don't understand this hysteria???...

 

Honestly for me it comes down to wanting a book that has survived over the years all by its lonesome. Once the line is crossed where somebody tries to help it along through manipulation. Well then it is no longer what it once was. Even if it is just a personal pereference, I dont like it. And would like for the company who graded it to pass along that information, if possible.

 

It is not the same book. And I personally dont want to be told it doesn't matter that nothing was added, so the book is in the same as it was when fist published.

 

If I had 2 similar condition books in front of me, and I know one was presed, dissassembled etc.. I will always choose the book that was not worked on.

 

Who wouldn't?

 

That is why virgin books are worth more money isnt it? And isn't that why most people do things to books? To try and improve them in the hopes they sell for more money?

 

 

Ze-

[esquirecomics]

Part of the problem I think many of us have with this entire debate is not as much the specific scenarios we can concoct back and forth but that the details regarding grading standards and restoration definitions are only known by a select few, i.e., those at CGC (and perhaps others), and new information seems to be spewed forth as different "scandals" materialize, and that a specific cadre of individuals seem bent on knowingly exploiting this situation for the almighty $$$$$.

 

I still do not understand how knowing CGC's grading standards or restoration definitions can have a bearing on proprietary interests. And I certainly, especially in light of these continuining and increasingly frequent incidents, do not view these positions as beneficial for the hobby that CGC continues to assert it desires to support.

 

And for sure those exploiting these gaps in CGC's policies are doing so for their own selfish personal interests and could care less about the impact their conduct might be having on the community.

 

[Sal]

After the years have passed, I buy all the pieces back and reassemble the book using the original staples.

 

At this point no restoration has taken place...

 

no offense, but how the *spoon* is taking something APART, and then PUTTING IT BACK together not restoration? regardless of what happens to it or doesn't happen to it when it is disassembled?

 

it's still gone through a "change of state." it starts out as a Raw book. take the staples out, it has now become a Collection Of Wraps and A Cover. in order to make it a comic again - or to restore it back to its original state - it has to be reassembled.

 

 

 

 

geesus.

 

 

luckily i don't buy high dollar books, but there are going to be a lot of old-time collectors pushed right the *spoon* out of this hobby by this nonsense. a word of advice for those who decide to leave; don't sell.

 

in ten years, when the market is flooded with cleaned, pressed and otherwise manipulated Frankenbooks under the auspice and tacit approval of the largest and most influential Third-Party Grading Association, your unworked-on books will garner a premium from those who actually care about how their books survived over the years

[skybolt]

Here's Steve's response to the Boy Comics #17 issue. I should have deducted from his explanation that completely detaching and re-attaching the staples is acceptable under the blue label designation. I just assumed that only tucking the loose sheets under the staples is allowed

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...rue#Post1065511

[Norrin_Radd]

You have a comic book in front of you. You decide to take out the staples. Then you decide to put them back in. You just dis-assembled & re-assembled a book.

 

How did you restore that book? How did you make it better? (Rhetorical questions.) In fact you took a risk at making it worse by damaging the book.

 

I think I've found the loophole in this logic.

 

When you disassembled the book, you damaged it. Disassembled book is now a Poor 0.5.

 

At the point where you reassemble the book, you have restored it.

 

No difference from someone repairing a flaw a book acquired over a period of years. You damaged the book by disassembling it, and restored it by reassembling it.

 

 

 

If CGC doesn't see anything wrong with disassembling and reassembling comics, then it's over. Time to lock up and learn how to grade coins because you've COMPLETELY LOST any idea of what original condition comics are. And you've lost what credibility you had.

[ArAich]

it's still gone through a "change of state." it starts out as a Raw book. take the staples out, it has now become a Collection Of Wraps and A Cover. in order to make it a comic again - or to restore it back to its original state - it has to be reassembled.

 

I humbly disagree...take my first example again...if a book has 2 covers and one is removed and then the staples are reinserted with only one cover...this is restoration???...how so...you have actually taken something away from the book yet it is virtually the same book...

 

Besides...how do you propose to detect this with 100% infallability???...

[Comicdey]

I just read the turns this thread has taken for the first time in a couple of days.....

 

I need to go have a drink....and digest all this ..................................................

 

I'm not usually a buyer of high grade CGC books although I have a few 9.0-9.2 range. I'd have bought the books outside the slab anyway and likely paid a similar price.

 

again..........

 

I'm consistently amazed how the rules keep changing.....or maybe they never did....but they are slowly creeping out for all to see.

 

I wonder if CGC has a copy of the grading rules posted in the graders room with RED lines scratched through rules as they've changed over the past few years and hand scribbled additions. Redhook...you skills are needed here for a manipulative post.

[OldGuy]

if a book has 2 covers and one is removed and then the staples are reinserted with only one cover...this is restoration???...how so...you have actually taken something away from the book yet it is virtually the same book...

 

Besides...how do you propose to detect this with 100% infallability???...

 

Or how about this one:

 

if a book has rough edges and they are trimmed, this is restoration???...how so...you have actually taken something away from the book yet it is virtually the same book...

 

Besides...how do you propose to detect this with 100% infallability???...

 

 

Less was taken from the trimmed book then the book in your example.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Besides...how do you propose to detect this with 100% infallability???...

 

Should NEVER be an issue.

 

How do you guarantee you'll always catch the murderer?

 

You don't...but it's still murder.