Restored AF 15 9.6

[PovertyRow]

You bet. Since you're local, you can take a look at the book before I send it off to her, if it comes to that. , this'll be the first time I ever intentionally worsened the condition of a comic -- and PAID to do it!

 

I am back and can look at the book. But something to keep in mind - restorer's have their own knowledge, gleaned from study and apprenticehip and experimentaion. What I see may be different form what another restorer sees. So I will be happy to look at the book but do not expect my opinion to jive with anyone elses.

 

PM me if you want to hook up.

[fantastic_four]

I wish you luck on this one and hope for all the best!!! All of that restoration definitely looks removable.

 

It's a shame that you weren't able to call CGC first, because their grader's notes should tell you approximately how large a surface area was affected. My own experience with having restoration removed from PLOD CGC books is only with color touch. The guidelines I've been working from after talking with Matt Nelson about restoration removal and having him do some for me are:

 

• Very small amount of color touch -- grade could drop from 0 to 2 notches. I had Matt remove a book with only this work done and it went from 9.2 to 9.0.
• Small amount of color touch -- grade could drop from 1 to 4 notches

Anything beyond that scares me because the range it could fall to becomes too wide and the risk increases too much, which is why I passed on this AF 15 CGC 9.6 when it sold on Heritage last year. I don't really know where the simple "Color touch" descriptor falls on CGC's quantitative scale...maybe it's right above "Small amount of color touch"? I dunno. Definitely call Matt Nelson and/or Susan Cicconi; they've got experience with how much CGC grades decrease following restoration removal.

 

I doubt you'll gain much market value on this sale, but hopefully you'll get a nice 8.0 out of it if you pursue restoration removal. I doubt it would stay that high, but it's possible. You can see one of the very likely color-touched areas--right below the 12 cent price tag on the spine. That alone looks like it'll knock grade down to around 9.0 once the CT is removed. I can't tell where the piece added was, but the odds are it was either a chip on the edge, or the upper-left or lower-right corner. Removing all of the CT alone will probably knock it down to at least the VF range, so after that it'll be a matter of how big the piece added is and how long the tear seal is.

 

I suspect you'll decide not to remove the restoration, but who cares? That's a LOVELY copy of one of the top 10 comics ever made. PLEASE tell us how it turns out!!! Whether the experience turns out to be good or bad, it's definitely a uniquely interesting one that everyone can learn from.

[murph0]

Sounds good, I'll be out there this Summer for a wedding. Actually, will be in Carmel but close enough.

Glad you got the book, if it couldn't be me at least it's someone else who'll appreciate it. I really can't figure out Tasar, it's beyond market logic. I can only hope it lives up to the #'s. I didn't think it was going to be a real long term hold but now it's lookin like it.

 

Brian

[GoodyRickles]

You Know that's SUCH a NICE Book, I would LEAVE IT ALONE. You can Probably Sell it for What you Paid for it for a VERY Long Time. I agree that the Buyer Listed this Too LOW. Must have needed the Money Quick!!

[RedSkull]

Tasr has captured to imagination of the day trader. I have been watching it also but do not hold a position. It surely defies logic but then so does paying $16000 for a restored book. In any case the day traders have captured the comic book market and will also propel it to new highs. The analogy to the 1989 coin encapulation market is upon us. The day the coin market was frount page news on the Wall Street Journal in 1989 is the day that market in coins ended. History will repeat itself and the day will come when comics are touted as the best thing since sliced bread but until then the market will go up.

[fantastic_four]

The day the coin market was frount page news on the Wall Street Journal in 1989 is the day that market in coins ended. History will repeat itself and the day will come when comics are touted as the best thing since sliced bread but until then the market will go up.

 

Comics haven't hit the front page of the Wall Street Journal yet, but they have garnered around half a dozen articles and news clips in major newspapers about what a "great investment" they are since the recession sunk in back around 2001.

[fantastic_four]

Here's a message I got back from Matt Nelson when I asked him several questions about restoration removal on a CGC 9.0 book with "a very small amount of color touch" back in 2001:

 

From: Spectre52@aol.com

To: ruddj@home.com

Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:52 AM

Subject: Re: Restoration Removal

 

> - Do you sometimes not find as much color touch as CGC has? Or if a book has

> already been CGC graded, is it possible to call them up and ask them where

> the touch is so that you don't have to detect it yourself?

 

When I do restoration removal and the book has already been graded, I work

with CGC to find the exact location of the work. Their information points me

in the right direction, although they do so many sometimes their notes are

sketchy. On a rare occasion I'll find something they didn't, but almost never

do I find less.

 

> - Are there times when you find that you're unable to remove professional

> color touch?

 

No, but there are times when there is too much to remove without wrecking the

grade. In those cases, the book is left alone.

 

> - Any idea what CGC means when they say "very small amount," "small amount,"

> and "moderate amount" of color touch on a cover?

 

Yes, it just pertains to one or two dots of color touch (very small), minor

c.t. here and there (small), and then the moderate amount, which is usually

in tandem with piece replacement and tear seals.

 

> I'm including a scan of the comic I'm considering, but if the color touch

> isn't removable, or if it's likely to lower the grade by much more than half

> a point, I probably won't bother.

 

Thanks for the scan. More than likely removal will not affect the grade much,

because the color touch is professional and light. If you'd like, send it to

me for an evaluation to determine what is best for the book. Thanks,

 

Matt

[fantastic_four]

Oops, I didn't notice until just now that the description on the listing detailed the work done with so much precision...I thought you guys were speculating. I'm a little worried that they chose to list the book 30 minutes after CGC closed going into a weekend, which maximizes the odds that someone would buy since comiclink has been so "supahot" lately...but hopefully the description doesn't exaggerate. The comic acumen I see in that seller's description makes me think there are two possibilities...that they thought themselves the work was too great to risk removal, or that they weren't sure WHAT the post-removal grade would be so they tried to move it with the restoration rather than take the risk of removal. Either way, the knowledge evident in the description, the call to get the grader's notes, and the very well-thought out listing price makes me believe they're DEFINITELY exaggerating about the possibility of the book being a 9.2 given that the market value would be at least triple what they're asking if it did go that high.

 

If the description doesn't exaggerate, I still can't see the book being 9.2 even with only a 1/16" by 1/16" ULC piece being completely removed. If the tear is only 1/16", I doubt it affects grade since the piece added is a lot more severe and since I've seen CGC give the 9.6 grade to unrestored books with a 1/16" edge tear. If the seller is right that there are exactly three touched areas, then the other two besides the CT that would have to surround the piece replacement are almost certainly the two nicks below the 12 cent price tag. It looks to me like there could be three nicks there and not two, but then again, there's no saying that all three are color touched.

 

Could it be that CGC sometimes uses the generic "color touch" descriptor to describe the same amount inferred by the "small amount of" modifier when other forms of restoration are noted? Possibly so...that would be the ideal situation here. If that's the case, then I could see the book possibly hitting 8.5 after all work is undone. If it did hit 8.5, this would be a REALLY nice buy! If 7.5 turns out to be a risk because the seller lied or exaggerated about the CT extent, then it's still a $10K to $14K book. As long as it doesn't go below 7.5, this will be a positive experience all the way around given the amount fantasyfootball (and the rest of us! ) will learn about restoration.

[ghoulaid]

Could one color touch be at the bottom staple? Look for a small horizontal line in the grey building. I think I see another under the 12 cent price and another in the yellow word balloon (not that it matters where they are).

 

Nice book! Will easily be worth $25,000 within 5 years (if not sooner, WITH the resto).

[fantastic_four]

Could one color touch be at the bottom staple? Look for a small horizontal line in the grey building. I think I see another under the 12 cent price and another in the yellow word balloon (not that it matters where they are).

 

I do see what you're talking about. Man, I hope you're not right for several reasons. First, I can't believe CGC would give a 9.6 grade to a book with three color-breaking spine nicks like those visible under the price circle. That's what led me to believe the CT was there...sometimes if the CT doesn't perfectly match or entirely saturate the affected area, the color break beneath it can show through very slightly (a bright scan can further enhance an imperfect CT), so I thought CGC didn't downgrade much for those on this book because they were mostly touched-over. Second, if the areas you're referring to are CT and not some other natural type of discoloration, then the removal of that area in the yellow word balloon would wreck the grade.

 

 

Nice book! Will easily be worth $25,000 within 5 years (if not sooner, WITH the resto).

 

I agree, the future of almost ALL restored books is brighter than the present...and on this book, it's even brighter, given that it's such a big key which presents so well.

[The_End_At_Last]

SInce CGC had this comic in their hands, at the time they should have been able to determine what grade the comic would have without the restoration being made. So imagine if this was actually put on the label. Something like :

 

9.6 Slight (P : 9.2)

 

Would that suddenly make PLODs more marketable ?

[murph0]

I don't know that's a good idea. It might then cause the illusion that the book could be a 9.2 if they removed the restoration. Which, as FF stated, isn't likely the case.

 

Brian

[FFB]

After reading the Captain's comment about the book being one of the nicest copies in existence, I checked the census. 1 9.6 blue and 1 9.6 (sp) purple. 5 blue 9.4s. This book is the nicest restored copy (slabbed) in existence. I am leaning against taking out the resto, but I'll still check with Susan about options. I've wanted an AF 15 since I was a little kid, so I'm really excited about this purchase.

[COI]

After reading the Captain's comment about the book being one of the nicest copies in existence, I checked the census. 1 9.6 blue and 1 9.6 (sp) purple. 5 blue 9.4s. This book is the nicest restored copy (slabbed) in existence. I am leaning against taking out the resto, but I'll still check with Susan about options. I've wanted an AF 15 since I was a little kid, so I'm really excited about this purchase.

 

I've had a few purple labeled books, 3 of which I sent in myself. My observation has been that they are graded a little harsher than unrestored, blue labeled books. I sent in an Avengers #1 which I graded as a VF/NM, and it came back 8.0 restored. I sent in an X-Men #58 which I graded as 9.4, and it came back 9.2 restored. I also sent in an X-Men #60 which I though was a sure 9.4 and had an outside shot at 9.6, and it came back 9.2 restored also. And just to give you a perspective on my grading, in the lot of books I sent that included the 2 X-Men books, every unrestored book came back as I graded it, or 1 grade over my expectation except for one book which had surface wear that I didn't see. I am purposely harsh on CGC candidates, and go over them with a fine tooth comb, because I don't want to waste the time and grading fees involved.

 

So what's my point? I haven't seen the sole existing unrestored 9.6, but I would be willing to wager on the very likely possibility that this copy is nicer than the unrestored version, even if the difference is very slight. Again, I haven't seen the unrestored 9.6, but I'm speculating based on my experiences with restored slabs. Af 15's may not exist in any nicer shape than this. So if you can get past the (IMO) insignificant resto on this very significant Gem of a book, I think keeping it in its present shape is the way to go.

[blowout]

I would tend to agree with others here that the book is best left alone, at least for the moment. You have a 9.6 AF 15 on your hands! Why would you want to lower the grade if it is staying in your own collection?

Also there is also the possibility in the future that attitudes toward PLOD books may improve.

[sterlingcomics]

...and the very well-thought out listing price makes me believe they're DEFINITELY exaggerating about the possibility of the book being a 9.2...

 

That was my initial thought when I read the description. If it was 9.2 before restoration, who in their right mind would restore it?!?

 

The description and asking price didn't add up. Still a nice book at the price however, I'm not denying that...

[DiceX]

I would tend to agree with others here that the book is best left alone, at least for the moment. You have a 9.6 AF 15 on your hands! Why would you want to lower the grade if it is staying in your own collection?

Also there is also the possibility in the future that attitudes toward PLOD books may improve.

 

I totally agree with this.

No way in hell would I get the resto taken off.

Enjoy the book as it is.

It's the best of the best.

 

The purple label would not bother me at all.

[spidermanbeyond]

After reading all the posts, I am voting with everyone else. Don't have the restoration removed. It is a Amazing Fantasy 15 CGC 9.6, one of the best slabbed in existence (restored or not), if you have the restoration removed it might just be another 8.5. I bought an Amazing Fantasy #15 a while back ago because I always wanted one as a kid too. I think everyone wanted one as a kid. You could probably flip it easily but I would enjoy it. By the way, what does PLOD stand for? I know it is abbrev. for the purple label. I think some day the negativity toward the purple label will improve.

[rob_react]

By the way, what does PLOD stand for? I know it is abbrev. for the purple label.

 

Purple Label Of Death/ Doom.

[spidermanbeyond]

FF, have you tried Susan, for color touch removal. Your letter was helpful. I have a couple of Silver age books with tiny and small color touch up.