Fellow Boardies Help, Is my ASM 1 Restored?

[scooter99]

Going to send it off to CGC, and go from there. The dealer is a great guy, and any attempts to slag him off are misplaced. If anything its simply a matter of not knowing restoration as well as some of the profesional spotters.

 

That dealer is not a great guy. He is nice to you because he is giving you the pork sword. That resto is as easy to spot as any I have ever seen on a scan on here. It is blatant. Absolutely blatant. I am sorry for your troubles, but you got hosed.

 

+1

 

Do not lay down on this. I'd do everything in my power to get a refund from this "reputable" dealer. Demand the refund. Tell him his name will be revealed on these boards and make a sign and picket his place of business. DO NOT let him off the hook.

[seanfingh]

I'm going to talk to the dealer tomorrow. Could anyone summarize, what you think are the main visible signs of resto. And does anyone have a scan of a pristine non-touched ASM 1 to compare to?

 

From the outside it is the difference in colour. From the inside it is the area where the Marvel chipping has been retouched, and it kind of looks like drywall paste on the edges.

[Ze-man]

I'm going to talk to the dealer tomorrow. Could anyone summarize, what you think are the main visible signs of resto. And does anyone have a scan of a pristine non-touched ASM 1 to compare to?

 

Got a shout out to check this thread out. Wow, not sure what to make of your situation.

 

Based on scans alone, here is what I can see wrong with the book.

 

Again, this is just based on scans. One would need to see the book in person to make an accurate assessment.

 

 

 

Cover looks like it was cleaned. Interior cover inks are smeared, which is usually a result from improper cleaning causing the thin black inks to smear.

 

Int. cover looks to be reinforced, and CT'ed white in places.

 

1/3 of the top (spine) edge appears to be trimmed.

 

Right outer edge trimmed, poorly

 

Top spine corner possible piece fill , definite CT.

 

Botched erasure near 12 cent logo.

 

CT along top edge.

 

Possible piece fill, and definite blue CT to upper and lower right corners outer edge, and also along entire outer edge.

 

Bottom edge, more blue CT.

 

Bottom staple tear CT'ed blue.

 

I assume there are Black spots CT'ed. Too hard to tell from the scans.

 

Back Cover spine corners look to be filled, and CT'ed white. Same with bottom edge pieces. Larger scan would help there.

 

 

 

An awful lot for an experienced dealer to miss.

 

 

My BS Detector is going past 11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[miraclemet]

1. Im no big restoration expert

2. but the easiest thing I can see if someone asked me what to point to for restoration work is the right edge of the cover. The blue color of the original part of the cover is achieved with the small blue dots, you can see along the restored edge portion that there is blue, but not thru the dots, but just a solid blue color. Compare to the big scan of the unrestored ASM1 where the dots go allll the way to the edge of the book. Thats the most easy to spot part of the restoration. And just that gets you both piece replacement and color touching.

 

 

[miraclemet]

Botched erasure near 12 cent logo.

 

 

nice catch. In the big scans you can see what looks like a faint 5 (or maybe a capital S) was removed/erased/cleaned off to the right of the 12 cent logo. Maybe it was from pencil or grease pencil.

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

Also, Kenny Ze-Man drools and greggy rules.

[VintageComics]

Restoration today is much more advance to the point where yes, some people can even replicate dot patterns.

 

Really? I assumed nobody did that--you've seen it?

 

I haven't seen it but I've heard about it.

 

What's to stop someone from just photocopying artwork (dot matrix and all) onto the correct paper and using it to replace a piece?

 

 

[VintageComics]

Oh yeah, once someone pointed out to me (and I have little to no experience in resto) you can very clearly see the halftone dots are gone from those areas. That's not light or angles - the ink is just not there. Which, I guess I'm a little surprised about - wouldn't a resto guy want to replicate the dot patterns of the chunks he's replacing?

 

That's like asking "wouldn't someone want a space ship in 1890?"

 

It just wasn't done that way back in the day.

 

Restoration today is much more advance to the point where yes, some people can even replicate dot patterns.

 

Resto detection is just a matter of experience. Looking at a few samples of what to look for is a very easy way of learning it and you quickly come to "spot it" as it jumps out at you.

 

 

I imagine it's a lot more advanced - but replicating a dot pattern, especially ones from the 60's - which are infinitely larger than modern ones - seems more of a craftsmanship issue. Black ink and an appropriate-sized needlepoint seems like it would do the trick, and those tools have been around longer than the printing press.

 

But, hey - who knows. Maybe I'm just reading into it more than I should.

 

I suppose anyone could have done it even back in the day if they had the resources to do it but time is money, as they say, so maybe the costs did not justify the means at the time but do now.

 

[Ze-man]

Also, Kenny Ze-Man drools and greggy rules.

 

Greggy

 

End of story.

[sufunk]

Going to send it off to CGC, and go from there. The dealer is a great guy, and any attempts to slag him off are misplaced. If anything its simply a matter of not knowing restoration as well as some of the profesional spotters.

 

That dealer is not a great guy. He is nice to you because he is giving you the pork sword. That resto is as easy to spot as any I have ever seen on a scan on here. It is blatant. Absolutely blatant. I am sorry for your troubles, but you got hosed.

 

+1

 

Do not lay down on this. I'd do everything in my power to get a refund from this "reputable" dealer. Demand the refund. Tell him his name will be revealed on these boards and make a sign and picket his place of business. DO NOT let him off the hook.

 

+1

 

You may think he's a good guy and hey maybe he is and is just the worst resto detector EVER. But, people who have gotten refunds from robojo probably think he's a good guy also and just missed something.

 

Refund or not, this guy should DEFINITELY be outed. If for nothing else to save another collector from wasting 10k or more. He obviously sells BIG books and obviously has ZERO clue how to detect resto. Even if somehow this was an honest mistake and he refunds you, do you want another collector to have the same feelin you do right now???

 

This is DEFINITELY going to happen again either thru malice or incompetence so do your part and help other collectors steer clear of sellers that either are rip off artists or are just completely and utterly incompetent!

[VintageComics]

An awful lot for an experienced dealer to miss.

 

 

My BS Detector is going past 11.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Just the large pieces from the small scan make me cringe. I wonder what else shows up with the book in hand.

 

This is the type of book where you should be able to see it from a convention wall.

 

 

[seanfingh]

Also, Kenny Ze-Man drools and greggy rules.

 

Greggy

 

End of story.

 

Living off the greatness of your offspring is sad. You'll end up like LiLo's parents.

[maloney414]

You need to demand a refund. If you don't get it, you out him here. Period.

[Ze-man]

Oh yeah, once someone pointed out to me (and I have little to no experience in resto) you can very clearly see the halftone dots are gone from those areas. That's not light or angles - the ink is just not there. Which, I guess I'm a little surprised about - wouldn't a resto guy want to replicate the dot patterns of the chunks he's replacing?

 

That's like asking "wouldn't someone want a space ship in 1890?"

 

It just wasn't done that way back in the day.

 

Restoration today is much more advance to the point where yes, some people can even replicate dot patterns.

 

Resto detection is just a matter of experience. Looking at a few samples of what to look for is a very easy way of learning it and you quickly come to "spot it" as it jumps out at you.

 

 

I imagine it's a lot more advanced - but replicating a dot pattern, especially ones from the 60's - which are infinitely larger than modern ones - seems more of a craftsmanship issue. Black ink and an appropriate-sized needlepoint seems like it would do the trick, and those tools have been around longer than the printing press.

 

But, hey - who knows. Maybe I'm just reading into it more than I should.

 

I suppose anyone could have done it even back in the day if they had the resources to do it but time is money, as they say, so maybe the costs did not justify the means at the time but do now.

 

 

In the end, even if you use a micro needle ,and work under a 20X loupe. Tying to accurately recreate a dot matrix pattern by hand is impossible.

 

You think you are nailing it , doing really well....only to pull back to see it looks like a blind monkey painted the area with a dust broom. The dots just become too big, and poorly spaced..and the paper soaks up and creates a mess really quickly

 

No offense to blind monkeys or dust brooms intended.

 

You can get away with it on very small areas. But that is more of trying to "fool the eye" into not see the area was CT'ed. Then recreating large Dot Matrix areas by hand.

.

 

[Ze-man]

Also, Kenny Ze-Man drools and greggy rules.

 

Greggy

 

End of story.

 

Living off the greatness of your offspring is sad. You'll end up like LiLo's parents.

 

As long as she kicks Greggy in the boys, I am ok with basking in her Ellen'ness.

[AndyBoBo]

That all sounds pike a guy who knows exactly what he had and reeled in the fish before glut got away.

 

+1

 

I'll be quite surprised if he ever agrees to a refund.

 

I think a refund is highly unlikely.

 

At this point I'm thinking these are my options:

 

Getting it CGC'd, and just holding on to it for a long long time.

 

Sending it to Matt Hunter and either have him try to Resto Remove, or even restore further for a higher apparent grade.

 

Either way I'm going to be losing a couple thousand dollars, and might have to sell off some of my keys just to make up for this.

 

Damn I feel stupid right now...

 

Let me preface the following with: to me this is rarely the avenue/approach to take when purchasing books, but you just spent $10k - to me that is not simply a comic book purchase.

__________________________

 

Regarding a lack of a refund policy or being sold "as is." That's, for lack of a better term, B.S (at least how it has been described). If he truly sold you the book as unrestored, you purchased an unrestored book; in other language you assented to his offer of an unrestored 8.0 ASM #1. Where it is restored that is a misrepresentation on his part. Also, you have some of the hobby's biggest collectors saying that however clear the resto is, it is not all that "clear." At $10k this is worthy of at least seeing your options. My advice is to go talk to an attorney. I can't see, based on what you have said, someone not helping you out with this.

 

OF COURSE, go back to the seller and demand a refund first.

[joeypost]

I'm going to talk to the dealer tomorrow. Could anyone summarize, what you think are the main visible signs of resto. And does anyone have a scan of a pristine non-touched ASM 1 to compare to?

 

Got a shout out to check this thread out. Wow, not sure what to make of your situation.

 

Based on scans alone, here is what I can see wrong with the book.

 

Again, this is just based on scans. One would need to see the book in person to make an accurate assessment.

 

 

 

Cover looks like it was cleaned. Interior cover inks are smeared, which is usually a result from improper cleaning causing the thin black inks to smear.

 

Int. cover looks to be reinforced, and CT'ed white in places.

 

1/3 of the top (spine) edge appears to be trimmed.

 

Right outer edge trimmed, poorly

 

Top spine corner possible piece fill , definite CT.

 

Botched erasure near 12 cent logo.

 

CT along top edge.

 

Possible piece fill, and definite blue CT to upper and lower right corners outer edge, and also along entire outer edge.

 

Bottom edge, more blue CT.

 

Bottom staple tear CT'ed blue.

 

I assume there are Black spots CT'ed. Too hard to tell from the scans.

 

Back Cover spine corners look to be filled, and CT'ed white. Same with bottom edge pieces. Larger scan would help there.

 

 

 

An awful lot for an experienced dealer to miss.

 

 

My BS Detector is going past 11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And BOOM goes the dynamite.

[Sal]

I'm doubting that his "as is" is enforceable, anyway. The book's got obvious, extensive - and likely amateur - resto. Any statement he made to you regarding the amount or lack thereof of restoration would be in your favour.

 

 

With respect to his ability to deal in resto detection, and your defense of same (such as it is), I would kindly point out that as a dealer with 30 years of experience, missing this level of work on a book speaks very poorly about his ability. If he's running a shop selling pamphlets, games and knicknacks, with an emphasis on moderns, sure. He's likely not seen too many ASM 1 copies up close. He might not even have seen all that many SA books. Again, that's a bit like going to a used car dealer who doesn't have a mechanic on staff and hoping that his assessment of your new vehicle is more extensive than "hey, it looks okay to me! Runs great, I took it around the block once with no problems!"

[sassemble]

 

My trip into the deep end took place in 1990.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

No offense to blind monkeys